(0:03) Hi everybody and welcome to Passion Institute podcast. I'm so excited to have somebody on (0:10) today who I've now known on and off for quite a few years. I remember seeing her on stage, (0:15) I remember meeting her through PSA or Professional Speakers Association and Jane is one of those (0:20) people that weaves in and out of my life.

I see her impacting so many people and I'm really excited (0:26) to have her on the podcast today. Now her CV is huge, there's a lot of things that she has (0:31) but let me tell you a little bit about her. She's a strategic communications expert, (0:36) she's got over 20 years of experience in corporate communications, personal branding, (0:40) business growth and she's now worked with almost 200,000 people, especially women, to build trust (0:47) and influence their businesses as well as their brands.

She has also been voted as the top three (0:52) branding gurus globally and she's won over 70, that's seven zero, sales, branding, marketing (0:58) and business coaching awards, including one a week or so ago. She's also got the top one percent (1:05) of most views LinkedIn profiles, she's the host of the iTunes podcast, The Jane Anderson Show, (1:12) she's interviewed people like Seth Godin, her clients include some of the world's leading (1:17) experts in their field including Virgin Australia, Lego, Ikea, Rio Tinto and the list goes on. And (1:24) the last thing I need to tell you about her is that she's an author of 14 books, (1:27) including Women with Influence and how 12 leading women build a successful world-class (1:32) corporate consulting practice.

Jane, welcome. Thank you Shivani, I'm so excited to be here and to (1:39) work with and hang out with you. It never seems to be long enough when we catch up.

 (1:45) I know, I recently saw you at the convention and there never is, is there? But today I get to kind (1:50) of find out more about you, even though as I said in my intro, I see you on the periphery of so many (1:55) different things and different people and congratulations on your recent award as well. (1:59) Thank you, thank you. It was a lot of fun, it was really nice too.

My husband was with me that night (2:04) and it's always nice to celebrate with people around you. Yeah, awesome. Well the first thing (2:10) seeing that we talk about Passion Institute here is, I want to know kind of what this word passion (2:15) like means for you Jane and what does it hold in your work, maybe even personally? We'd just (2:23) love to sort of hear more about your views on this word passion that we use a lot here.

 (2:27) Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I remember when I worked in a role when I was Head of (2:35) Capability at Super Retail Group for many years and it was always interesting, this was one of (2:40) the values for the organisation and we'd see, it was the question I always asked at interview because (2:45) you would have the rev heads, you had the cycle heads, you had the fishing crew and so a lot of (2:52) this passion came out of hobbies and they were sort of people who were working in an industry (2:58) associated with their hobby and so that's where you got the passion, the energy, the drive, (3:05) the enthusiasm, the fun that they really, you know, you got to see people who were really (3:12) passionate about what they did and that sort of drove me to, you know, I guess the work I do in (3:16) helping people. I started off in working with careers and seeing people love what they do and (3:21) so today, you know, when I look at the type of people that, particularly people like you that (3:27) are experts in their field, it's generally that they like to do the fun things that they've enjoyed (3:33) in their careers and so most of the time now for me, I think it's about where I see people doing (3:39) what lights them up, what feels like flow, doesn't feel like effort, they get so much joy, (3:45) fulfilment and fun out of it and so they're like, if I could just do more of that, (3:51) I'd be really happy. So I think the passion is really about doing what you find fun, fulfilling (3:57) and you feel like gives you a lot of freedom to do and to be fully self-expressed in what you do.

 (4:04) Yeah, absolutely and I also noticed that a lot of people that we've had on the podcast here, Jane, (4:08) talk about this flow state, right, that when you're doing something that brings you joy, that (4:12) you find fun, you are kind of in that flow state. Jane, I want to switch gears for a second and talk (4:18) a bit about like, you know, I think often the best way to find out about people are they're (4:22) finding about some of those really big challenges in their life, you know, when you're at kind of (4:26) your low points and how you overcome some of that, that transform you into who you are. (4:32) Can you just do a couple of those points that were pretty challenging and like how did that (4:39) transform you into who you are today? Yeah, I think probably, oh look, there's always interesting (4:46) things and I think probably two of the biggest challenges, I think one that was, you know, (4:51) probably, what's that, 10 plus, 13 years ago now, 15 years ago now was going through a divorce, (4:59) you know, that certainly was a really challenging time.

I remember finding that really hard. I had (5:04) to move back in with my parents at 30 years old and, you know, that's really character building, (5:11) isn't it? Thankfully, I have wonderful parents, but, you know, I remember my, at the time though, (5:18) it was the GFC, so it was around 2011 and I had been doing a lot of career work and capability (5:27) and helping people get their jobs and whatever and then, but at the time, going through divorce, (5:32) moving back in with my parents, back home and I couldn't get a job and, you know, I remember my (5:37) mother saying to me at the dining table, you know, I don't know what you're doing, but it's not (5:44) working and, you know, I felt like the biggest imposter because I thought, well, here it is, (5:52) like, this is the work I do and help people and now I can't seem to make this happen myself. So, (5:58) but, you know, I think the thing that got me through that was my mother said to me, (6:03) well, what would you do if you were coaching someone? And she just said, and I was, you know, (6:09) I think when you're going through divorce and, you know, starting life again, I had to leave my job (6:15) and leave the town where I was and so just going, you know what, I've got to get outside myself and (6:23) go, okay, I've got the skills here, I've actually just got to be proactive and go and find, and so (6:29) what I did was I went and found who would be the dream job, like, mum got me to do my vision board, (6:35) she's like, just do all the things you would tell someone to do and I went and I applied, (6:42) I reached out to a company that I thought would be a good fit and said, would you take my meeting, (6:47) give me 10 minutes, I reckon I'm a good fit for you and pitched and they took me on.

So, (6:53) I think what I learnt from these challenges and I think over years is that I don't sit back and (6:58) wait for something to happen. I've only ever had one job where I was part of a normal recruitment (7:03) process, every other field or role that I've had has always been just making it happen and making, (7:11) helping people see the value I could bring and they've made a job available or made something (7:16) happen. And then the second time was that I had a physical incident.

I was at a pub here (7:25) in Brisbane once and I was attacked in a pub and it was a glass, it was across a glass, (7:32) a whole lot of, it was a table with all glasses on it and there was a bit of an argument going on (7:39) with the crowd I was with and it got out of hand and I got pushed across a table and there were (7:45) all glasses across the table and just in that moment, I thought I was going to be cut on my (7:51) arms and wrists and I went flying across the table, the glasses went everywhere. (7:56) And I didn't think anything of it at the time but a year later, I was diagnosed with PTSD (8:02) and so I had a lot of flashbacks and things that were going on and it was hard because I was (8:09) still facilitating, delivering workshops and all those sorts of things and trying to show up with (8:15) the energy and compassion and empathy for everybody. But what it taught me is experts, (8:22) get the right people around you, get help, don't be afraid to ask for help.

I think sometimes you (8:27) can always feel like you're the one that's always the helper, you're the person who has to be the (8:31) leader and be strong but it certainly taught me that sometimes you just need to ask for help (8:37) yourself. Yeah, absolutely. I didn't realise that.

That's a story that I haven't heard (8:44) from you before and how wonderful your mother is, right? I mean, what right thing to say, (8:49) hey, what would you say if you were coaching these people? And I remember hearing this (8:53) saying many years ago that said, you know, teach what you need to learn. And sometimes I think it (8:59) works in reverse there. Thank you for sharing that.

And I think it's interesting, isn't it, (9:05) whether you look at the word resilience or you look at other things, but they become pretty (9:10) transformative parts of who you are and what you do. You help lots of business owners and (9:17) consultants and coaches like set up their business, set up their systems. You know, (9:22) I see you running content creation days, et cetera, as well.

And so and obviously you've (9:26) got your own team. So what are a couple of tips that you've got in terms of how do we create (9:31) people that work in our teams, whether you're doing that with your team or when you're working (9:35) with some of your clients? What are some of the tips that you go, how do we create people that (9:41) are really motivated, that deliver, that are held accountable, that are passionate? Share a couple (9:46) of those tips in terms of what you do to make sure that they're delivering. Yeah, I think a (9:51) few things come back to really who you are as the leader and the recruiter, how you show up.

I think (9:58) sometimes, you know, when people can see what you do, I find when I go to recruit, the comments I (10:04) always get was I went on your website. I was so inspired. You know, this looks amazing.

So I think (10:11) if you can be visible, be transparent and have things like, you know, your face, videos, things (10:17) that people can access that inspire them to go, wow, I would love, you know, we know that for (10:23) particularly for recruiting a team is that they want to work with a leader who has a vision and (10:29) we know that if they can buy into that. So they need you to lead. They're like, I'll happily (10:35) jump on as long as I can see you've got a vision and you know where you want to go.

So I think (10:39) that's number one is how are you articulating what you do and what are you doing to make it (10:45) inspiring for people to want to work with you? And my EA, Gemma, who's wonderful, she reached out (10:54) to me for that reason. She didn't find a job. She just saw my profile.

She was working for someone (10:58) in Canada at the time. And that person was going to be closing their business. And they said to (11:04) she so Gemma was sort of looking for someone similar to her.

And but she wanted to work on (11:09) Australian time zone. And and when she saw me, she said that that's that's what I'm trying to find. (11:16) So be a magnet is what I would say.

And then the second thing I think is being interested in them. (11:24) So being curious about their family, what they like doing outside of work, (11:29) I'm always interested to know what is the vision for their future and what is five years look like (11:36) for them. And sometimes I might find it hard, but, you know, I'm going, well, what's the orientation (11:41) here? If I can work out the orientation, then, you know, all you have to do is really be interested.

 (11:48) And then what's the goal for the next 12 to 18 months? So, for example, I had a team member who (11:54) said to me, well, my dream for the next 12 to 18 months, he said, I really want to propose to my (12:01) girlfriend. And I was like, right. OK, so how are we going to do that? And so he had some milestones (12:08) that he wanted to achieve.

And so he said, OK, so, you know, I knew when that was coming and (12:13) what he wanted to do. And then he said, you know, I would like to get married. I'd like to have (12:17) children.

And, you know, he's been with me for six years now. And his passion is his family, (12:23) his passion is that. So, you know, for me, it's about how do I create a life, a work life that (12:32) helps to optimise that so that he brings his best self to work.

And so, you know, as a result, (12:39) I've got great commitment, focus, attention to detail. You know, he values the role. He's always (12:48) keen to learn.

So I think when you buy into, yeah, you've got these goals in the role, but what are (12:54) you trying to do outside of work? If you can work that out, then for you as the leader, you know (13:00) what you can work with. And then therefore far more about, well, great, she gets me. There's (13:07) more to me than just the things that I'm processing or doing.

I'm me as a human being. If I can tap (13:13) into, we have a saying, my job is to, their job is to make my life easier. My job is to make their (13:20) life better.

So if I'm going, if I am improving your life, that we know that they're achieving (13:25) their potential, then they're going to stay and I'll be able to help them achieve what they're (13:30) trying to achieve as well. Yeah, I love that saying. You know, your job is to make my life (13:35) easier and my job is to make your life better.

I think, yeah, that's great. The next question I (13:41) always feel like it's a bit, it's such a big question, but it's the shortest question. And (13:44) what I ask is that all the things that you've learned in business, like whether you want to do (13:50) that as tips, Jane, to say, here's a couple of recurring themes, or here's a couple of, you know, (13:56) things that I've learned that I keep applying, doesn't matter what angle I take in the business, (14:00) or perhaps it's, you know, the people that you're helping.

So I'd love to just like a couple of your (14:04) learnings that you've had in running a bunch of your businesses, but also helping a bunch of (14:10) business owners. Yeah. Well, you know, I think for business owners, one of the reasons why we're (14:17) going to this game is to have freedom, but freedom needs structure.

So without structure, and I mean, (14:25) you're the master of this with systems and everything you've built in the businesses, (14:29) you've built Shabani and the structure that you've created, you know what it's like in that, (14:35) you know, if you haven't got structure and systems and processes that, you know, (14:39) that creates a whole lot of chaos, and which is the total opposite, then you feel like you've (14:44) got this ball and chain on you. So number one would be have a structure, have a plan, (14:50) and whether that means you're talking to a going to an advisor, someone who's trod the path before (14:55) you say, you know, I don't want to learn on the run, I want to, you know, I need a plan, (15:01) I need to know where this is going so that I can make decisions. And then the secondly, (15:06) second thing is, is focus on your customer, listen to what they need, listen to what they're asking (15:13) for.

And have a mindset of a customer for life, you can have customers for life, instead of trying (15:20) to find new customers all the time, and your clients all the time, is if you really look (15:25) after the ones you've got, you'll have customers for a lifetime. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, that's (15:32) beautiful in terms of just, you know, the simple stuff, but the simple stuff's not done very well (15:37) often, is it? It's the, it's the, the repetition of it.

I remember somebody saying once to me, (15:42) and I don't remember who it was, Jane, and they said, a boring business is a profitable business. (15:48) Right. And so when you've got the systems, when you do the same thing over and over again, (15:52) whether it's for your health, or whether it's for your business, it's that repetition of it, (15:56) isn't it? In terms of, in terms of being able to do it.

And I wanted to know, like, you know, (16:01) at the moment, there's so many people that are talking about AI and the impact of their, (16:05) on their business, but we've always got some sort of challenges, people have always got a challenge (16:10) that's coming in. I want to know how Jane Anderson thinks. Do you have a process? Do you have a (16:15) ritual? Do you journal? Like, something comes your way, and you go, right, that's a problem, (16:18) I've got to sort of work through that, or think through that, or systemize through that problem.

 (16:24) How do you go about doing it? How do you address that challenge? Again, happy whether it's work (16:29) or personal, but I'm always curious to know how people address challenges and problems when they (16:34) come their way. Yeah, I had one just over Easter, actually, it was a big, big thing with some of the (16:41) work I'm doing. And I just had to kind of go, okay, what would I do? And I remember seeing a (16:47) video of, you know, Maya Angelou, who has some beautiful quotes.

And there's a really great (16:54) video where she talks about when she goes on stage, she brings all her mentors or all her (17:02) people with her. And she says, we're here together, that she talks about being on stage and bringing (17:09) all those with her to speak on stage. And so I tend to do something similar if I'm going through (17:16) something I'm trying to work out.

So it was a really strategic thing I did, I needed the space (17:21) I used Easter to do it. But I just tap into, I bring my board of directors around me. And they (17:29) are often people who I've either worked with in the past, they know me well, have mentored me.

 (17:35) And I go, what is the question here I'm trying to solve? And then I visualise each of those people (17:42) and I just say, what would they say? What would they say? And what would they say? So I have a (17:47) virtual board of directors that I've gotten to know over the years. And sometimes I might call (17:54) or talk to them if I'm really struggling. But I think a bit like you, sometimes you've been in (18:00) business a long time.

And it's not saying that you know everything sometimes, but I think we (18:07) know more instinctively than sometimes we give ourselves credit for. But I visualise my mentors (18:14) around me and I just ask the question, if I had them here, what would they say? And it's usually (18:21) pretty clear once you start to answer that one. That's great, isn't it? And I love that Maya (18:27) Angela quote.

It's almost like I've heard certain speakers talk about bringing even their lineages (18:32) back in, right? The answer is I know that when we are listening to acknowledgement of country (18:38) in certain places, being Australians with our fellow Aboriginal people that you sort of feel (18:45) that lineage sort of coming in and sort of bringing all the people in there. That's beautiful. (18:49) Jane, you've achieved like 70 awards.

When I read the CV, I was trying to read it at 3x speed (18:58) to basically get through it. What about your future aspirations and passions? Like what are (19:04) some of the things you go, I want to do more of that or I haven't done that at all and I want to (19:07) do that. Take me through some of the things that you've thought about or that you still want to do (19:15) both work and outside.

Yeah, in work, well, it's interesting you talk about AI. So, (19:22) one of the things I'm playing with at the moment is not just for me, but to be able to help (19:28) those I help is how do you clone yourself into AI that you can create a leveraged way to help (19:37) your clients. So, for example, that you've got an app and if I could say, Shivani, (19:44) what would I do with blah, you can pick up your phone and say, I can be driving to the coast (19:49) or something.

I'll go, you know what, I'm going to have a chat with Shivani today. (19:54) So, you've got years and years of expertise, wisdom, knowledge, and all the IP and assets (20:00) that you've built over the years is to be able to put it into some place that people can ask (20:06) at a time that suits them without them feeling uncomfortable, embarrassed, (20:11) whatever it might be. So, that's one thing that is the project for this year.

And then the other (20:18) one is I am working on what I think is the evolution of personal branding. Personal branding (20:25) is where I started in my business. And then it sort of eased off and infiltrated into a lot of (20:32) things.

And so, now I'll probably pull that out and I think I'm ready for the piece of work that (20:39) I would have liked to have done 10 years ago and I just haven't been able to do it. But it's been (20:43) an itch that's there. So, it's time to probably pull that out.

But outside of work, oh, we've got (20:50) a couple of things like retreats overseas that have been on the bucket list this year and those (20:56) types of things. So, that'll be fun. But outside of work, it's been trying to allocate just a (21:07) little more time.

So, long weekends, things like that with my husband. I have the most patient (21:13) husband in the world. And so, I promised him this year I said, oh, we'll get some more breaks in and (21:19) we'll do some other things.

It's his turn now. He's been very supportive for me. Yeah, beautiful.

 (21:23) I love that notion of taking turns. Scott and I have that discussion every five years that we (21:28) take turns. Right, okay.

In terms of careers and yeah. Okay. Yeah, which I can talk to you about as (21:36) well.

Yes. Jenny, when you're giving so much of yourself, like you have to manage your wellness (21:41) and your own wellness. And particularly, there's a lot of discussion now around mental wellness.

 (21:45) Do you have other things that you do, whether it's daily or weekly or yearly? Do you go off to (21:52) retreat? What are some of the things that you do to manage your own wellness as you are giving so (21:57) much to everybody else? Yeah, great question. For us, the work we're in, it's always you've got to (22:03) have a pretty full bucket to pour from. So, I try to get the basics.

I always think if I can get the (22:12) basics right, just try to get to bed at a decent hour. I like to get up early. So, I get a lot done (22:21) early in the morning.

So, I've just got to get to bed for that. So, that's one. I just always try to (22:27) keep my water going, do my 10,000 steps.

I bought a treadmill recently, just so that I could get my, (22:34) I've got 5,000 in before I start the day and then the other at the end before the day's done. So, (22:41) that's, I've enjoyed doing that. I'm listening to more podcasts and things in the morning and that (22:46) fires things up.

I've also been fasting a bit more. So, just not eating as much. So, I just (22:56) don't really need to have as much food.

So, that's been good. In terms of once a month, I have a (23:03) massage and a float. I find that really helpful.

I really enjoy that because I can tend to get quite (23:11) tense. So, I always find that anything like that, I have a wonderful masseuse who I go to. (23:18) She's Japanese and she's just gorgeous.

And I think I enjoy just chatting to her for an hour, (23:24) but it's just as nice. And then otherwise, I also, every six weeks, I have a long weekend (23:33) and every 12 weeks, I have a client-free week. So, that means that I might do some things, (23:40) but I potter around, clean up, cleanse, different things like that that I might do.

 (23:47) So, I'm still there if it's urgent, but I just like some space once a quarter. And I find that (23:55) really helpful. And then we try to have a bit of a holiday at some stage, a winter and a summer (24:00) week somewhere.

But yeah, I find that routine is good. But the thing that I found that's really (24:06) helped is having a support person. So, in our world, we have VAs, EAs or my assistant (24:14) is I've trained her in my wellness routine so she can make sure I do it.

 (24:22) So, she runs the calendar. It's not much point in me trying to run it by myself and then she's (24:27) putting other things in over it. So, I really had to get her buy-in because she runs the schedule.

 (24:32) And then, of course, she could have her routines as well. But otherwise, it's really easy to just (24:42) go, oh, well, I won't get to do it this week or it doesn't matter. But I just find I need (24:49) an accountable buddy to make me do it.

Yeah, that's fantastic. And not many people (24:56) think of that, Jane, to go, how do I train my assistant to help me manage my wellness? (25:01) That is super cool because then they're actually doing it for you. They're at least scheduling it (25:07) in.

And for most of us, particularly in the world of speaking, coaching, consulting, facilitating, (25:13) if it's in your diary, you do it. If it's not in your diary, you kind of do it. (25:19) Jane, tell me a little bit about some of the work that if people want to book you, (25:24) if people want to contact you, what would I as a coach, consultant, speaker, facilitator, (25:29) what sort of work would I be booking Jane Anderson for? And then also tell me about what (25:34) some of the platforms, what is the best places for people listening to this podcast or watching this (25:40) can find you? So they go, yeah, this is a woman I want to speak to.

And how do we (25:44) go about doing both those things? Thanks, Shivani. Yeah, so, well, I'm on LinkedIn. (25:51) So if people want to, usually around there, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, you're welcome (25:55) to jump on there.

And we're on the website, jane-anderson.com.au. So if people want some (26:03) help, I usually help a lot of women who have thought leadership, consulting and advisory (26:07) practices that are selling business to business. And then later this year, I'll bring my executive (26:13) work back in, which is a little more around helping executives to really elevate and create (26:19) that magnetic personal brand and executive presence that is becoming a bit more prevalent (26:26) now. So all those people skills are all coming right back.

So not that they went anywhere, (26:31) but I think just with AI, human connection, all those things, it's just so yeah, so jump (26:38) on LinkedIn, Instagram, and they're the type of areas I can help. Beautiful. It's been such a (26:44) pleasure.

I'm so glad that I finally got you on the podcast. Thanks for making the time. (26:47) Thank you, Shivani.

It's a pleasure.

(0:03) Hello everybody and welcome to all of you listeners, watchers of the Passion Institute (0:07) podcast. Firstly, I just want to thank you for tuning in. I appreciate you, I appreciate that (0:12) your time is valuable and so thank you for doing that.

Secondly, I wanted to give you a quick (0:16) overview of what I'm going to be talking about today and we're going to dive into how do we (0:21) scale our businesses through our people who are absolutely our most powerful asset. So one of the (0:27) things you want to do is whether you hire your fifth or your 50th employee, I want to take you (0:32) through some thoughts, some ideas, something that you might already be doing well that you go (0:36) actually that's an interesting idea, I might do that better or you are not doing that and you get (0:42) some ideas to be able to do that. So this is really for leaders that are trying to scale their teams, (0:48) they've got a lot of work that's coming in and how do you actually go about doing that when you want (0:53) to hire and engage some of the right people particularly when you're going through that (0:56) scaling stage.

So the first thing that's really important and I talk about this a lot is that (1:00) we've got to really look at our hiring process and we don't just want to look at our hiring process, (1:05) we want to evolve through a hiring process. What do I mean by the word evolve? Well when you look at (1:10) you know from a spiritual perspective when we look at the great masters they talked about (1:14) enlightenment, that we got better at not reacting to reach that state of enlightenment. (1:20) How does that mean in terms of evolving the hiring process? Well you kind of want to hire but also (1:26) without losing the soul right.

So you want to shift from just having the standard process, (1:31) you want to really look at how do you keep your cultural DNA in your business, how do you keep (1:36) that alive in every hire and every key person that you hire and are able to engage especially (1:41) when you're scaling and growing a business and teams whether they're hybrid teams or face-to-face (1:46) teams whatever they are, when you're growing people in your teams it is so important to make sure (1:52) that we actually get that cultural fit and we do that a little bit more. And we also as part of (1:58) that process in terms of being able to engage really high-end people that are really smart, (2:03) they love being kind of left alone a little bit. So we want to hire the right people but we want (2:07) to empower from an engagement perspective, give them all the tools, give them all the training, (2:13) give them the accountability and let them run it because people that are pretty smart (2:18) hate being micromanaged.

The other thing I believe that businesses really need to do (2:22) and as leaders we need to do is that we really need to look at our employer value proposition. (2:27) We talk about value proposition to our clients or our VP all the time but we've also got to look (2:32) at our EVP. What's the value proposition that we have as an employer to the employees because that (2:38) is some stuff that you do that is beyond a salary.

That is where you know not only are you looking at (2:45) that you've already got your mission and your vision etc but this is where as a leader you (2:50) are communicating your vision through stories. You are talking about your values and your culture (2:55) through storytelling. So that really helps people link into what it is that you're trying to create (3:00) and that EVP, that value proposition for employees, it needs to be super clear from the times that you (3:08) do your ads to when you're interviewing to when you're onboarding and constantly in some of your (3:14) team meetings in terms of what you do.

A lot of people talk about well people you know there's (3:20) people and there's data but the question here becomes when you are really trying to create a (3:24) new culture and really grow people and teams is how do we intersect the two? How do we use data (3:31) to drive our talent decisions? For example you know how often are you doing engagement surveys? (3:37) What's your turnover data? Why are people leaving at the exit interviews? Do you know some of that? (3:43) So also knowing who some of the top performers are so not just doing this when they exit (3:47) but looking at some of your top performers and interviewing them. What makes them stay? Why do (3:53) they want to stay in your business and how do we replicate that more from end-to-end process around (3:58) what we do here? We also want to layer in the leadership at the right time. So for example (4:04) middle management becomes really essential to your business as you are growing because you can't have (4:08) all these people directly reporting to you and you might already have some middle managers but how do (4:13) we invest in the training of those emerging managers and leaders? Also the ones that might be (4:18) Plan B's and Plan C's as I talk about in a number of my books and the podcast is you know how do we (4:24) actually create some of that path of leadership within that business from them and if we if we (4:29) really invest in them then we are able to also promote within and what we want to do is have (4:34) experienced managers not only in terms of their skills but also in terms of the culture that you (4:40) have in your business.

I also want to talk about the fact that when we scale in culture we want to (4:45) do it very very intentionally. What do I mean by that? What I mean by that is that culture can drift (4:53) as your teams start to grow. You know so you have people that have been there for a while but new (4:59) people come in and that culture to maintain it as teams go can get diluted very quickly.

So we want (5:05) to use rituals whether you have town halls, whether you have onboarding stories, whether you have (5:11) people that maybe even be championing perhaps the culture in your business to reinforce who you are (5:16) and what your culture is and what you stand for and we also want to have kind of a you know a (5:21) decision making you know a framework not just a poster that we've got we actually want to say well (5:27) how do we actually make decisions around our values so that we're not just making decisions around (5:33) what's going to make us the most amount of money for example. So how do we (5:36) intentionally start to look at some of the bigger elements of culture as we start to grow our teams (5:42) as well. Strategic process is you know I'm a big fan of strategic planning but more importantly of (5:48) the planning it's the implementation of it and the implementation of it as I talk to all the leaders (5:53) that I might be working about I say to them have your five or ten year plans but make sure you've (5:58) a very clear 12-year plan but more importantly make sure you've got a very clear 90-day plan.

 (6:02) What are you going to do in the last next quarter and can your people see what they need to do to (6:07) be able to deliver that. That's a really really big part of that strategic process and so strategic (6:14) process and planning is great but we want to make it practical we want to know what the KPIs are (6:18) and we want to be able to measure them whether it's daily, weekly, definitely monthly, definitely (6:24) that links into year quarter and then definitely that links into your year. So you want to be able (6:29) to do that and you want to make sure that onboarding occurs not just in HR and your HR part of the (6:35) departments but other parts as well.

The other thing that's always a little bit controversial (6:40) is talking about reward. Do we reward the performance or do we reward tenure. My experience (6:47) has been that it's so important to know your people to work out whether they actually want to (6:51) move into management role.

Sometimes people that have been there for a while don't really want to (6:55) move into management. They might not want people responsibility so rather than just giving it to (6:59) them you know we want to reward that performance. We want to make sure we understand our people and (7:04) what it is that they want to achieve in their path of leadership as well and so you know sometimes (7:10) going from the informal updates to making sure that we've got frameworks or bonus structures (7:14) that allows to be able to give people the performance in terms of what they do.

It (7:21) recognises your high achievers not just your long-term employees so it starts to create a (7:27) little bit of friction in your teams but they know that as long as they do well not just the number (7:32) of hours they put in it's actually performance-based. Communication becomes even bigger. It's always (7:38) the number one issue in teams and when you're managing people but it becomes even bigger as (7:43) your teams start to grow and as you're scaling.

So making sure that we go from this informal stuff (7:48) to a little bit more structured. Making sure whether you're actually even doing some internal (7:52) newsletters or little videos. Giving some have some leadership updates.

Just making sure that (7:58) people are aligned without overwhelming them and the best ones that I see is when the leader is (8:03) kind of either doing a weekly 90 second two minute video like here are some wins but certainly on a (8:10) getting that and then everybody's getting an input in terms of where the manager or leader is actually (8:16) what they're achieving and what they're up to. And as you get bigger and particularly if you're (8:21) getting bigger very fast in your businesses then you want to be fairly agile and fairly (8:26) flexible with your organisational design. You don't want to go right this is it for the next (8:30) three years.

You want to have enough flexibility so that as that happens and some of the responsibilities (8:35) of some of the people in your business start to evolve that you can do that. Again having some (8:40) pulse surveys which take one or two minutes. Doing that regularly.

Doing an occasional interview to (8:46) find out where people are at. I guess what you're trying to do really there is just to make sure (8:51) that people are traveling okay to well. And the last thing that I want to share is that how do we (8:57) engage with purpose.

Not just you know giving people perks for example. So how do we really (9:03) engage people to show how their work connects to the company goals. How do we you know I know that (9:11) lots of businesses have got you know a pool table or a ping pong table.

That's fantastic and that's (9:18) great way socially for people to interact. Have some mindfulness in there. But I'm talking about (9:22) not just those little you know things that we go okay these businesses are doing it so I'll do (9:27) that too.

I think it's more important these days that people want to focus on autonomy and mastery (9:33) and really linking what they do into their businesses as well. The key thing in this particular (9:38) podcast is that we want to systemize things more. We want to get that cadence and that rhythm going (9:44) of things more.

But we don't want to dehumanize things. We want to make sure that as our as our (9:50) teams get bigger you know and that might be you've got two people and then you're joining two more (9:54) people. Well guess what you've just doubled in your team size.

So just thinking about those whether (9:58) you're going from two to four or whether you're going from 30 to you know 50 people whatever it (10:03) might be in terms of the size of your business just thinking through some of those ideas in (10:08) terms of ensuring that you stay connected to your people and it starts to make a difference. Thank (10:14) you for tuning in. I always appreciate you tuning in.

(0:02) Hi everybody and welcome to Passion Institute Podcast today. I'm really excited to be (0:10) able to introduce to you Dominique Lee. Dominique is a cancer specialist that works in Brisbane (0:18) in ICON.

She's very passionate about well-being and she's been doing a bunch of studies. That's (0:24) how we met when I was speaking at a particular conference. She's a mum, she's a wife, she does (0:30) a lot of work on a number of volunteer things and I'm just so excited to be able to talk to somebody (0:37) who is so passionate about a number of areas in their life.

Welcome Dom. Thank you so much for (0:43) having me on your podcast Giovanni. Oh I'm so excited and it's very honoured to be here.

Yeah (0:48) well Dominique and I've been working together on a couple of projects around well-being for (0:52) doctors and we really want to take that work in different areas as well. Dom, obviously our (0:57) podcast is called, you know, we talk about passion a lot, we're a bit on, we're a bit obsessed with (1:01) this particular word. Tell me what does this word mean to you? Like how do you define it? What is (1:07) it for you and how do you, you know, kind of live this particular word of passion? I love your (1:14) focus on passion.

You know, I work in an industry where individual needs are not considered very (1:22) important and I can't, you know, I remember a number of years ago attending a workshop (1:30) where for the first time in many years I was asked, what are your values? What things are really (1:35) important to you? And I remember circling a few of the known core values that was on the (1:44) piece of paper and then we had this exercise where we had to, if we had to give up a few, (1:51) what would you, what would be the most important, what would you get rid of first? And I remember (1:55) the lady who was running the meeting, the workshop, looked at me as I was putting down (2:02) some of the values that I'd written down and I'd picked and she says, Dom, you look like you're (2:07) struggling a little bit. She said, you know, I see that you're, as you, you know, put (2:14) down more of your values as, you know, less important. You're starting to clutch on to the (2:19) other values that are really important to you.

So have a look at those, the top three, and (2:26) let's reflect on that. And that was several years ago, probably five years ago now, the first time (2:32) I actually thought about what's actually important to me, what values really speak to me and drive (2:38) my action. And then two years ago we met at our college conference where you were doing your (2:45) fantastic talk on living according to your passion.

And I guess that kind of brought a fresh (2:52) eye to, I'd never actually thought about my passion that much in the last, you know, since I entered (2:58) the medical workforce and, you know, breaking it down and having a different light. And (3:05) it was a really beautiful way of trying to figure out what I want in my life (3:10) that is bigger than what my job dictates from me or requests of me. And so for me, passion is what, (3:21) it's pretty simple.

What I'm very, I live a very hectic life, as you've already described, and (3:27) I'm tired most of the time, but passion for me, the things that I'm passionate about, the things that (3:34) I'm happy to read about, I'm happy to invest my spare time doing, and the things that really (3:45) bring me joy. And to me, the first thing, there's really three things that I can think of that I'm (3:52) really passionate about. One is my work.

Work is really important. I love caring for my patients. (3:59) And then the second thing is my family.

And also, I've sort of entered this journey of (4:08) advocacy and creating a better culture around me. And if I feel like I've sort of fulfilled (4:17) those three elements, I'm pretty happy. And I think it's a fairly simple way of looking at life (4:25) and passion.

And the times when I'm feeling really down, or I don't feel very happy are (4:30) the times when I'm heavily engaged in one area, but neglecting the other two or even one. And so, (4:38) yeah. Yeah, what a beautiful answer.

And so considering I just threw that at you. And so, (4:45) what I heard was that, yeah, even when I'm tired, I'm kind of driven to do better in the (4:53) areas that I'm really passionate about. And sometimes I can become a bit obsessed with (4:56) one area, but I've got a pretty clear idea of it.

Dominic, you and I have spent some time (5:02) offline talking about a bunch of things around wellbeing. And one of the things that forms us (5:07) into who we are is that sometimes we're in that fire where the fire defines and creates who we (5:15) are and who we become. And so we have these high highs and these low lows sometimes in our lives, (5:20) and they create who we are today.

I just wondered whether you would share with the audience today (5:28) of leaders and entrepreneurs that tune into this podcast, what are some of those challenging, (5:34) transformative moments for you and what the moments were, and then what was the transformation (5:39) that took place as a result? What a great question. For me, I feel like I've had a (5:48) relatively ordinary life. My number one goal as a child and as a teenager was to become a doctor.

 (5:57) I've become that. And then through exploring different things, I ended up settling with (6:04) cancer as a specialty to specialise in. Life does throw curveballs to everyone.

And for me, (6:13) it was an opportunity for me to look at, or maybe I shouldn't call it an opportunity, (6:22) I was forced to look at life in a different light. So I was very close to becoming a specialist (6:32) in my final year of specialist training. So I was 32 and I was invited to who I considered a (6:41) mentor's house to talk about my career progression.

And that evening, I didn't realise I was going to (6:49) be alone with him, but I was. And I was drugged and consequently assaulted. And, you know, the things (6:58) that followed after that really changed the way I look at, I guess, life in general and the way (7:04) we look at life without thinking too much, I guess.

I had to fight a big legal battle and (7:14) that took a long time. And I was, you know, my personality after that incident, I feel like, (7:23) had changed completely. I was a very outgoing person and became very withdrawn.

But because (7:29) I'm so committed to my work and job, I continue to work through the whole time and I never really (7:36) looked deep into how I could heal myself because the whole, you know, journey was about getting (7:42) through it all. During that time, the shame of the whole process, you know, that a lot of people (7:50) considering that sexual assault or some sort of harassment is experienced by at least one in 10 (7:56) people, general population, it's not, I'm not alone in experiencing this. However, (8:04) I thought in such a hierarchical and a small world of medicine that I live in, that the shame (8:11) of my experience or the whole ordeal wasn't, was enough that I would never be able to live (8:18) through it.

And so one of the ways I would, you know, that helped me to survive is by thinking (8:26) once I get through the whole court process, no matter what the outcome is, I didn't actually (8:31) have to face it because I would kill myself. That's what I used to think. And, you know, (8:40) it wasn't until many years later, several things have happened and I've obviously continued to (8:46) live, that I realized that the way I was looking at myself following the assault is (8:57) the way the world conditions women or conditions people to look at or view, (9:05) view sexual assault related in a workplace and who the troublemaker is and, you know, (9:11) who is to blame and so on.

And I looked around and was able to finally realize that the people (9:21) that are, and the, and the, and the merits and achievements that is valued, at least in my (9:26) profession, in effect suppressed and, and, and caused harm to innocent people. And so I was (9:38) very happily walking along the path of, you know, prescribed success, you know, you finish your (9:42) training, you become a specialist, you get hired in a whatever institution, and then you would have (9:47) a very long, prosperous career if you do, if you just follow. But for the first time, I was able to (9:57) look around and see the pain around me of the people who are actually left behind.

 (10:03) And it sort of became my life mission since then, and that's now several years ago, (10:10) to make, to try and do what I can to make medicine or hospitals a less lonely place for the, for the, (10:23) for doctors and also other healthcare workers who aren't given the recognition, (10:28) because, you know, perhaps they haven't had the time to achieve the things that, (10:34) you know, more senior people have or haven't done the research or, you know, (10:41) things along those lines. And that's been a real transformative experience for me. (10:48) And I look really long, roundabout kind of way.

 (10:51) No, no, that's not roundabout at all. And thank you so much for sharing that vulnerability. That (10:55) is not an easy thing to share, Dominique.

And, you know, I'm so sorry that that happened. (11:01) I know, we've spoken a little bit about that in the past. But you know, what I love when I'm (11:06) talking about something like passion with you, and you know, having you there is that it's what (11:10) you've chosen to done with it.

So it's not just what happened to you, you are now taking that (11:15) experience, and you're creating a better future for so many doctors, so many female doctors, (11:21) so that that starts to become a different place. And I think that is extraordinary, (11:25) in terms of, you know, who you are, and also, you know, what you're trying to do. (11:30) Dominique, I just want to switch gears for a second.

And, you know, talk about this notion (11:35) of how do we create more passionate people and businesses. And, you know, I know you've shared (11:40) with me that doctors are burning out, we've talked about how much stress they're under, (11:44) and then there's added things like, you know, sexual assault and a whole heap of things, (11:48) which happen in all industries, but in this case, like just speaking about the industry that (11:51) you're in. And so what have you seen? It doesn't necessarily need to be where you're at today.

 (11:57) You know, I know that you've been studying, and you've been, you know, presenting a lot (12:01) around well being for doctors and health, etc, as well. What do you think? What have you seen as, (12:06) you know, one or two things that really help create more passionate people, whatever industry (12:12) they're in? But specifically, do you industry that really helps create that? And what do you think we (12:17) can do? Look, I can't speak for everybody, but I think I do represent certain groups of population. (12:29) So, you know, I'm very typical of someone who gives a lot to work.

And I live to serve. It's (12:36) one of my main values. I love making other people's lives better.

And for people like me, (12:43) I think we're especially vulnerable to burning out, because all you do is give, give, give, give, (12:51) give. And I think the biggest lesson that I've had in the last five years is to is the importance of (13:03) putting the vision or the lens on you for a change and figuring out what gives you joy, (13:09) what makes you happy, because you can't give forever. And there's obviously very selfish (13:16) people on the other spectrum.

And then there's people like me who just live to please, I shouldn't (13:21) say live to please other people. But whereas like, for me, I just love seeing other people (13:27) feeling happy or having a good outcome because of what I've been able to give. (13:33) But taking the time out to focus on yourself, practice self-compassion, even though that can (13:39) sometimes sound really cliche, and figuring out what really makes you tick, because every industry (13:46) has sort of, I guess, a defined or predefined, you know, appearance of a success.

But then, (13:56) and it doesn't take into account that we're very diverse people bringing different diverse (14:01) lived experiences and personalities in, there's not a lot of room for authenticity. (14:07) But I think when you are your authentic self, A, you will be performing at your best. And B, (14:15) you will be happy and being happy.

You know, you're going to make other people around you happy. (14:22) And I think that's, that's a big learning thing that I've experienced in the last five years. (14:28) Yeah, beautiful, beautiful.

Um, you've already talked a little bit about this time in terms of, (14:34) you know, how did we make the things in business better? You know, it's about having that drive (14:39) and that focus. And you've also talked a little bit about, you know, challenges when they come (14:44) your way, like you sort of sit down, digest them and do that. Is there anything else that you do (14:48) when challenges come your way? Some people have a ritual or a process, some people write it down, (14:53) some people go for a walk or a run, like when when something's coming at you, whether it's work (14:57) related, home related, how do you go about dealing with it? I think if it's personal challenges, (15:04) then I think it's, as you say, very helpful to write it out or, you know, set a plan for yourself.

 (15:10) Self-reflection is often really key to finding an answer to your problem. But when it comes to (15:15) a workplace challenge or challenges that are beyond yourself and involves other people, (15:20) the best thing is to talk to people. Your resources, best resources going to be people (15:24) you know, working in medicine where there is a clear hierarchical structure, (15:29) where, you know, the kind of leadership that I've often seen is, you know, top down and medicine (15:36) itself, you know, doctors are the way we work is maternalistic, paternalistic.

This is what's (15:41) best for you. And I think when people reach a point of leadership, they often do that (15:47) with their workers, with their colleagues and say, I think you should do this. (15:51) But I think a lot of the times the answers lie within the people and the solutions lie within (15:56) the people and talking it out with your people is probably the quickest way of arriving to a (16:03) solution.

And it also helps to mobilise people because it's their idea, they're most likely (16:08) to drive it. Yeah, great. And just having that delineation between personal and work there, (16:17) you know, is really great.

You've done so many things, Dom. I want to know if some... (16:24) Not really. A lot, really.

I want to know about some of your future passions. What are some of (16:30) your aspirations? Doesn't matter whether it's 1, 2, 10, 50 years. Tell me about some of them.

Share (16:35) with us some of your future passions. Yeah, it's super abstract, but my long term or life (16:43) mission is really to make medicine because it's my, you know, core environment, a less lonely place (16:53) and help people build relationships and connections and stay safe. (17:00) And, you know, keep an eye out for the peripheral people and include and value diversity and show (17:09) how, you know, embracing difference can result in much better outcomes within your institutions.

 (17:18) And staying connected is really the only way to stay alive. I think we often forget that in high (17:24) functioning communities because it often feels like, you know, it's all on you and what you (17:30) achieve. But at the end of the day, what individuals can achieve will never be as great as what (17:36) groups can achieve.

And, you know, they say homo sapiens survived and, you know, won the (17:45) whole survivorship thing because they both impacts and organised. And I think in this current (17:52) climate where winners take all, often it feels like that. I think, you know, people knowingly, (18:00) unknowingly, subconsciously think that, you know, winning is everything.

But winning is everything (18:08) when it involves more than one individual, we can do a lot more as a group than one person. (18:15) Yeah, so true, isn't it? And it's that power of the collective, we talk about it, but sometimes (18:20) we sort of forget to say, hey, how do we, you know, combine or joint venture or combine some (18:26) of our forces or common passions in terms of being able to do that. Dominic, you talked a little bit (18:32) about this already, but I want to dive a little bit more into your own rituals.

So what are some (18:38) of the things you do for your own well being? Now, I'm always focused on mental wellness a little (18:44) bit more seeing that that's becoming a bigger issue. And I know you've shared with me offline (18:48) some of the challenges that doctors are facing. So I'd love for you to talk a bit about that.

And (18:52) I want to know, like, do you have rituals daily or weekly or once a year you go somewhere, (18:57) talk us through them. Yeah. So we as human beings, you know, the pillars of health, physical and (19:06) spiritual and, you know, and mental, I think we forget in professional life that all of those (19:12) things are very important.

I've come to understand that rituals are very important. I'm a relatively (19:19) creative individual. So I've actually not, I've managed to live without having a calendar, (19:24) having a diary until my 30s.

I rely on my memory, which is, you know, not very good, (19:32) you know, every year, but I'm getting worse every year. But, you know, rituals are really helpful. (19:37) And one of my rituals is because working in an industry where, you know, there's a lot to do, (19:43) it's relentless.

I used to have never ending to do list each day. And if I've done some, (19:52) and then I'll always create more to do more. But I've learned to prioritize five or six (19:59) and kind of be okay if I've done those top things and stop the rat race of, you know, (20:10) having to do more and more as much as possible type thing.

And every evening or every morning, (20:15) I would try and reflect on my top three core values, which really drive me and gives me purpose (20:25) and see if I've lived according to that and, and trying to be okay about my day. If I've, (20:32) you know, if I've lived according to my values, that's been really helpful. (20:38) And also trying to incorporate every year, trying to incorporate, try and make exercise, (20:43) I think, but, you know, I really like, I like daily, almost, it's like a daily checklist of (20:47) going, yeah, I do that value.

Did I do this? Did I do that? You know, that's great. Rather than (20:53) some people know, you know, we've had on the podcast as guests, Dominique will say, (20:56) you know, every year, I go away for two weeks, or I go to a silent retreat for a week or whatever. (21:00) And I just love that little daily check in, you know, around that as well.

And Dominique, (21:05) if people want to find out more about you, your work, some of the pretty big things you've taken (21:11) on, whether it's about safety of doctors in the workplace, whether it's some of the wellbeing (21:15) stuff that you're doing, where's the best places or platforms to find you? Where can people connect (21:20) with you? So I do have a LinkedIn account. And you can find me on Google. Dr. Dominique Lee, (21:31) with ICON.

I work at the PA, Princess Alexandra Hospital in Brisbane. (21:37) There are admin emails that you could directly email me to or via LinkedIn messaging. I do have (21:48) a doctor's wellbeing company called Hay Boss.

We have a have a website called hayboss.org, (21:56) through which you can contact me. I'm also Hay Boss. I think doctors is there's an Instagram as (22:02) well.

So you can reach me out there. Beautiful. We'll put some of those links into the podcast.

 (22:07) I'm going to hang out with you in a moment on a couple of other things. Just thank you so much (22:12) for being on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me.

This is a real pleasure and honour. (22:17) Thank you, Shivani.

(0:03) Hi, everybody. I am so excited to have on the Passion Institute podcast today, (0:10) Dr. Mark Van Rijmenam, and I hope I've got that right. He has phonetically spelled it out for me.

 (0:15) I have seen Mark in action for a while, and I recently got to experience and share some time (0:22) with him at the Professional Speakers' Association's annual convention. Now, Mark's (0:26) CV is very lengthy, but let me give you some insight before we hop on a chat with him. He's (0:32) the Architect of Tomorrow, and he's there to inspire and shape a future that aligns with (0:37) humanity's highest values, turning some of the challenges that we've got into the opportunities (0:42) through bold, actionable solutions.

He describes himself as an optimistic dystopian, and he's been (0:50) involved into the Architect of Tomorrow. He's pretty busy. He works with a lot of Fortune 500 (0:54) companies and governments and changemakers to really look at what we do.

He has been called (1:00) as, in the AI world, which is the world that we now live in, one of only 16 humans of voices that (1:07) are really shaping the future of what we do. He did his first TED Talks in 2020. He wrote the (1:13) world's first book written by ChatGPT in 2022, and he created his digital twin in 2023, some of those (1:21) he may speak about.

Mark, I could keep going with this particular CV of yours, but welcome, (1:26) and thanks for taking the time to be on the podcast today. (1:29) Thanks for having me, Shivani. It's such a great pleasure to be on your show.

 (1:34) Tell me, I'm going to move away from AI for a moment. We want to really understand you and (1:39) some of the work that you do. Tell me firstly, because we immerse ourselves and are obsessed (1:45) about the word passion, so tell me a little bit about what does this word passion hold in your (1:49) life in terms of where you sit today? Well, I think for me, the word passion is (1:54) very important because I've always been very fortunate enough to follow my passions and to (2:01) do whatever I think is good, whatever piques my interest, whatever I like to pursue.

I know I'm (2:08) very grateful that I have been able to do that, but it also has resulted that I've really shifted (2:15) careers and going left and right. I started in hospitality 20 years ago and then moved to (2:23) marketing, to finance. I went on an adventure.

I cycled around Australia and eventually ended up (2:31) in the technology space where I wrote a few books, did my PhD and play with the technology that I (2:36) talk about. I feel very, very fortunate that I have been able to follow my passions throughout (2:43) my career and to be able to do the thing that I like, that I think are important for humanity. (2:51) And that gives me energy.

I think that's what passion is all about, is doing something that (2:56) gives you the energy to jump out of bed every morning and work towards whatever objective you're (3:02) trying to complete. And yeah, I'm very happy that I can do that. Yeah, that's great.

And I love that (3:10) it's almost each of us have this checkered background, don't we? We've done all these (3:14) variety of things that have led us to where we have today. One of the things I'm always curious (3:19) about is many of us face adversity and sometimes those challenges, those really hard times define (3:26) us into who we are. And so I'd love if you could share maybe a couple of transformational (3:31) moments that you've had that have really transformed you into who you are today.

 (3:37) Look, I think if you are an entrepreneur, it always comes with challenges. It comes (3:42) generally with fewer highs and many more lows. You just have to make sure that the highs are (3:48) higher than the lows are low, so that it eventually balances out on the positive side.

 (3:53) And I've been an entrepreneur for about 15 years now. And being a futurist and being a (3:59) speaker, obviously the biggest challenge was COVID, which I think for anyone who (4:06) is in the speaking business, all our calendars just cleared overnight. And that was a (4:12) really big challenge.

However, for me, it helped me to completely reimagine myself, (4:18) because that's when I came up with the brand, The Digital Speaker. It allowed me to do the (4:24) first TED Talk in virtual reality globally. So it actually was really helpful for me.

It (4:30) helped me reshape my brand, reshape who I am. And I think whenever we come across challenges, (4:36) we should not look at them as problems, but we should look at them as opportunities, (4:40) opportunities to do something different, opportunities to look at the world from a (4:43) different perspective, and to find a novel route, so to say, to achieve your objectives. (4:52) There are many roads that lead to Rome, as we say.

And I think it's always you have to just (4:57) be able to be creative and to be innovative and to find what road works best for you. So (5:04) challenges are always there, but we just need to have the stamina to overcome them and to just (5:09) continue along the trajectory that you have planned for yourself. (5:15) Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? And I think, as you said, for you, even though the calendar (5:20) emptied, it gave an opportunity to kind of almost reinvent yourself and really say, (5:25) hey, this is some of the things that we can do with technology.

That's awesome. (5:30) You speak all around the world. You've had teams, but you've also been listening to other leaders (5:35) when you're at conferences and you're working with a bunch of different companies around the (5:39) world.

What have you seen work to really create passionate people? Have you got a couple of tips, (5:44) things that you've either experienced yourself or people that you've heard? Just talk about (5:47) that constantly. How do we create? Because we've got to have the human side and then we've got to (5:53) have this digital side as well. And so as AI will take over and has already started to take over (5:58) so many different roles, the people that are left, how do we create them to be more passionate? How (6:03) does it work in the future? I'd love to sort of hear what your thoughts are and what some of the (6:08) roles are that are going to be still critical and what we're going to need from humans as well.

 (6:14) I think the challenge that we have is that the vast majority of people are not very passionate (6:19) in their work, which is a real shame. To start, I'm super grateful that I am very passionate in (6:26) the work that I do, that I very much enjoy the work that I do. Obviously, there are always (6:30) sides to my work that I don't enjoy, but I think that's just a way of life.

But it's (6:37) finding the things that make you tick, finding the things that make you happy, that you like, (6:42) that gives you this energy building your body. I think if you think about it, (6:47) you start smiling, whatever that is. And if you think about your work and (6:53) that doesn't happen, then you need to change your job, you need to change your work, because life is (6:58) too short to do something that we don't want to do.

And there are always ways to figure out how (7:03) to make money, especially if you do something that you really, really enjoy. So I think if you're (7:10) looking deep inside yourself, what makes you tick, what makes you happy, whatever that is, (7:16) that's what you should pursue. Because generally, it also means that if you do that, (7:22) you're very good at it.

And that combination is, I think, very useful. Now, when it comes to (7:28) the future of works, I have to say, things are going to be very much disrupted in the next (7:35) five to 10 years when AI automation and robotics are taking over our society. Thinking that that's (7:42) not going to happen, I think is a bit naive, because we do live in a capitalist society.

 (7:48) So if there is a tool or technology available that will help you as a business become more (7:53) productive, more effective, and have more profit for the shareholders, you will always implement (7:57) that. So what we will see happening in the coming years is that every organization in the world will (8:02) start implementing at scale AI agents, robotics, automation, etc. to make their business more (8:09) effective.

So that means that jobs will be lost. And it also means that if you want to keep your (8:15) job, you need to be well versed in all these domains that you can actually integrate (8:22) these tools in the jobs that you do. If you don't do that, I'm afraid I have bad (8:27) news for you, that you probably will have to find a new career or a new job.

But that is the (8:32) reality of it. You're trying to fight that. It's not going to happen.

Well, you can, but it's not (8:37) going to do anything. So you need to be proactive to see what's coming. (8:45) And knowing what your passion is, I think, is very, very helpful, because then you're much easier (8:50) to shift and to go along with the flow.

Yeah, and you've seen that already, right? (8:57) I've come across certain clients that they're like, yes, you know, I'm doing the chat GPT, they're not (9:02) aware of any of the other tools that are there. But there's also sometimes that unwillingness to (9:07) learn. And so it'll be really interesting, even for leaders, what happens.

I wonder whether (9:12) organizations are only going to, in the future, hire people that have that open mindset to (9:18) AI and learning, because we need people like that, that will be able to integrate (9:22) both of them as well. The next question is a really tough question, but it's my shortest (9:27) question, but it's always a tough question. And what are the couple of things that you've (9:32) learned in business? So you've been an entrepreneur for 15 years.

Before that, you've had a variety (9:36) of different industries and companies that you've worked in. And so what are the couple of things (9:42) that irrespective of where you go, irrespective of what you do, they're the kind of the lessons (9:45) that you take with you? Well, it's a very good question, indeed. But I think if you're in (9:56) business, apart from doing something that you're very passionate about, I think it's having a very (10:03) customer centric perspective is one thing.

I think you should always build something or develop a (10:12) service or product, whatever that is hyper customer centric. I think this is my hospitality background, (10:18) where of course, in luxury hospitality industry, which were that's the one I worked in, you have to (10:24) be super customer centric. And I think that that is really relevant in any line of business is to be (10:31) hyper customer centric in whatever you do, because they are in the end, the ones who pay your salary.

 (10:36) So having that perspective, I think is really, really important. And then the second thing I (10:41) would say is, be flexible, be adaptable, you know, don't be stuck in your grounds, because it's, (10:48) change is the only constant that we have in the world. And if you try to fight that change, (10:54) as we see happening in some countries around the world at the moment, I think in the long run, (10:59) you will stand to lose.

So you will have to be able to, to embrace change, to be comfortable (11:05) with change, and to actually use that change to your advantage. So you can turn every, (11:11) every disruption, every challenge into an opportunity. (11:15) Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And it's that, yeah, a lot of that's going to come down to mindset. And so (11:20) when you've got, Mike, when you go about, you know, your normal work, but also your personal (11:24) life, challenges hit us all the time. And I'm always curious in terms of how people deal with (11:30) challenges, like do people have a process, or a ritual? Do they get a piece of paper? Do they (11:34) go for a night, you know, walk in nature? What's your process? What are your rituals? So when you (11:39) with that challenge, how do you address it? (11:43) Well, I have a coach, which I think is very helpful to someone to talk to, who knows my (11:48) business, who knows what I'm doing, who knows who I am.

So you can have a very sort of an abstract (11:53) perspective, look at your challenges and see a new perspective. And I think that that's very useful. (12:01) Going for a walk in nature, I think is one of the best things, just to clear your mind and to, (12:06) you know, whenever I go, whenever I'm stuck, and I go for a walk, I generally always find (12:10) a way forward.

And when you go for a walk, you know, our bodies, we love nature, you know, so (12:15) it's, it's sort of the perfect medicine of when you're stuck, is go to an environment where (12:22) there's a lot of greenery, and just walk, and walk as long as you need to. Eventually, you get an (12:29) insight that will help you to at least take the next step and to move forward from there. (12:34) I do a lot of meditation as well.

I mean, I think that's very useful to a lot of mindfulness to (12:41) try to quiet the chatter in your brain a little bit to get new insights. And just, you know, (12:49) as I said, embrace the challenges as well. There are opportunities to do something new, (12:54) to find a new direction.

And yeah, I run into this, of course, all the time myself as well. (13:01) And these are the things that I do. And it generally always helps to come up with a (13:05) new step forward, you know, it helps you to, to become more resilient.

And if there's anything (13:12) that we need as a species, at the moment, it is resilience in a world that's being disrupted on (13:17) all fronts. Yeah, that is so true, isn't it? I mean, I keep hearing these little (13:25) quotes and anecdotes of people just talking about that this is the fast, (13:28) yeah, absolutely. And I keep hearing about how different it is.

And for people that are unaware (13:34) of it, how much the world is about to shift, you know, in front of their eyes. What about you, (13:39) Mark? What about your future passions? What are some of the things that, you know, you've still (13:43) got on things that you want to do? And again, doesn't have to be related just to work, but (13:48) would love to hear what some of your future aspirations are, what your passions are? (13:52) What are some of the things that you're wanting to explore that you haven't done yet? (13:56) Sure. So my passion is to drive humanity forward.

And that sounds very abstract. But I have very (14:04) clear ways how I want to do that. And I'll share a few.

So the first one is that I've just finished (14:10) writing my next book. It's called Now What? How to Ride a Tsunami of Change. And it's really (14:17) given in from all the disruption that's happening and all the organizations and individuals, which (14:22) are all in a sort of a fight, freeze or flight mode and don't know what to do anymore.

So I've (14:28) crafted this book with a science fiction story throughout it, with illustrations, with very (14:34) approachable and easy to understand, and sort of to give people a roadmap of how to move forward. (14:40) So that's a passion project that is almost finished, at least now that the real hard work (14:46) starts to get it into people's hands. The other passion project that I focus on is my company (14:52) called FutureWise, which is if we want to drive humanity forward in a world that is being (14:59) disrupted at so many fronts, what we need to know, what we need to do is to become more aware (15:04) of how the world is changing, to embrace lifelong learning.

And that's what FutureWise (15:09) basically does. It will help people move from chaos to clarity in a world driven by information (15:15) and misinformation overload. And we do that using hyper-personalized insights that we generate with (15:20) AI that are completely tailored to your persona, your background, your preferred tone of voice, (15:25) your writing style, your expertise and your language across trusted and curated sources.

 (15:32) Really with the objective to help people understand what is happening at the moment, (15:36) because the world is changing so fast. As you like to say, you lose, so you have to be aware (15:44) what's going on. And my third passion project are my children.

So I have two young children, (15:51) and that's where you do everything for. And that's what I'm building (15:56) is for them, for the next generation, because I think the next generation is the most important (16:02) of humanity. If we stop that, then there is no humanity.

So we need to do whatever we can (16:07) to help the next generation be ready for the future. That's incredible. That's a great list (16:14) and I love the way you defined them into your three passion projects.

When you were speaking (16:18) about your book title, I've heard of the now and the what. I've heard of the change and (16:24) embrace. The part that really struck me was the word tsunami in the title.

And I think (16:32) that's what's happening really, isn't it? There is this tsunami coming. And we often (16:38) think about that as the physical one, but that's the part that really struck me. And I know we were (16:43) speaking a little bit about that for a few minutes at PSA, but that what just struck me as you were (16:48) just speaking there.

And I'm not sure how many people realize that there is a tsunami coming. (16:53) Yeah, that's it. And is the book out already or is it about to be released? Not yet.

So I've (16:57) literally just finished the last word. So the manuscript is done. As I said, I've got like 60 (17:02) illustrations in there, which is really gives a mix of visual stories.

That's all done. I hope (17:08) to be ready in the next two months for publication. And yeah, people will be able to (17:15) understand what to do and how to ride this tsunami of change.

 (17:18) Yeah, that's great. Mike, you probably alluded a little bit to this in a previous question. But (17:23) do you have rituals for yourself for your mental well-being? I mean, you talked a bit about walking (17:27) in nature, etc.

But are there other things that you do? And you talked a bit about meditation, (17:31) whether you do in daily, weekly, yearly, like, do you have any of those cadence and those rituals (17:37) that help you when you are trying to move humanity forward? You know, do you have some of those in (17:44) addition to a couple of those, or if you could go a bit deeper into that, that helps you manage (17:48) your mental well-being? Sure. So I tried to walk to work. I'm fortunate enough to be able to do (17:58) that.

But half an hour walk, which is I think, it's really nice to have that opportunity to clear (18:05) your brain or to listen to an audio book or whatsoever. I'd like to go to the gym and swim. (18:12) So whenever I travel, I will always make sure that I use the pool in the hotel in the morning (18:19) to clear your brain and to get your exercise even while you're traveling.

I do my meditation, (18:24) I try to do it daily. Before I go to bed, I've noticed that if I do it before my bedtime, (18:29) I sleep much better. So my sleep is sacred.

I don't sleep very long, generally six to seven (18:36) hours, but I make sure that my sleep is sacred. And to have a really consistent sleep, I have an (18:43) aura ring, which allows me to track my body data, which I think is very useful. So these (18:49) kind of small things, I try to eat healthy.

I avoid fast food like the plague and try to (18:58) be as healthy as possible. I do enjoy my glass of alcohol, but again, not in overdrive. I think (19:08) combination of social activities with the glass of alcohol, I think are great.

So there's very (19:14) small things, I think, that really matter, that really help you stay mentally fit. I read a lot. (19:24) I generally process three books, one in hard copy, one in audio book and one in ebook (19:28) at the same time.

And that keeps your brain going as well. So again, it's these small things that (19:35) compound over time to make you feel good, feel healthy. And yeah, that works for me.

 (19:44) Yeah, amazing. I've got my aura ring here. I tell you what, the stats of it did my head in.

 (19:51) Anytime I decided that I have more than one glass of wine, it's scary. Sleep well. (19:57) It's scary.

It's ridiculous. (20:00) I'm very annoyed at my aura ring. But it's, you know, as James Gleer calls it is the book (20:06) Atomic Habits, he talks about that habit stacking.

And I think that it's had to go (20:11) into the habit stacking to just to be able to, you know, do things differently. (20:14) Mark, we could talk all day to you. What are the best places for people to find you to connect with (20:19) you, even to find out about your book? And for people that are watching, people that are listening, (20:26) where can they do that? Because we have, you know, very few entrepreneurs and leaders (20:29) that are listening to the podcast.

What are the best platforms to find you? (20:33) So the best platform is my website, thedigitalspeaker.com. And so I have a (20:39) newsletter called Synthetic Minds. I've got 300 editions now. So I've been going for about six (20:45) or seven years.

And I'm quite well known, quite well easy to find on the internet. There's only (20:51) one Mark van Ramenham in the entire world, which makes it easy to find me. So I'm on LinkedIn.

 (20:56) I post regularly on LinkedIn. So you can find me there or on X or YouTube. So yes, I'm (21:03) quite visible.

If you want to start understanding how the world is changing, futurewise.com, (21:09) without the E in the middle, is very relevant. It's an app that you can download and you get (21:14) your personalized summaries. So yeah, it's easy to find and please reach out.

Oh, and one final (21:20) thing, you can also talk to my digital twin. If I am unavailable, my digital twin is available 24, (21:25) 7 and 29 languages via text, audio and video. Unbelievable.

I want to talk to you about that (21:31) when we stop recording. Mark, thank you so much for being on today. I really appreciate you.

 (21:35) Thanks for having me Shivani.

(0:02) Hello everybody and welcome to the Passion Institute podcast. I'm Shivani Gupta and (0:06) I'm so excited about having Cristy Burne on our podcast today. I had an opportunity to meet (0:11) Christy.

I had seen her in action online but then I had an opportunity to meet with her at the (0:15) Professional Speakers Association annual convention and she blew the crowd away. Let me tell you a (0:23) little bit about her. She's an expert in science communication and creativity and she's got over (0:27) 20 years of experience spanning five countries.

She's worked with some of the world's renowned (0:34) institutions including CERN, which is the home of the large Hadron Collider, Questacon, CSIRO (0:41) and the list goes on. She's authored the aura of 15 books, that is correct, one five, 15 books (0:47) ranging from biographies to graphic novels to fantasy. Talk about creativity here, right? (0:53) And she brings science to life through compelling storytelling.

Her work's been recognized with (0:59) awards and a bunch of things. Welcome, Christy. Thank you so much, Siobhanie.

It's so gorgeous (1:03) to be here. And tell me a little bit about, I mean, we talk about passion here all the time. (1:08) Tell me a little bit about what does this word passion hold for you? What does it mean for you? (1:14) Such a big question.

I love that your podcast is all around this big question of what is passion. (1:20) It is a big question, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I feel like some people think that passion is (1:26) doing what you love.

But for me, I feel it's more than doing what you love because sometimes (1:33) I do a lot of work in schools and sometimes what kids love is just sitting on the couch (1:38) playing Minecraft. So doing what you love is not passion for me. I feel like it has to be (1:45) doing what you love strategically.

And it's like putting your creativity into action. It's (1:53) being curious about the world, but then doing that with purpose. So I do feel like (2:01) to live with passion, you have to be doing something.

You have to be adventurous and (2:07) be courageous and try things. So yeah. Yeah.

And you can see that when you talk about creativity, (2:13) how many different things you've tried and been successful at so many of them. (2:18) And failed at so many of them too. You can't have one without the other, right? (2:23) I love one of your previous guests said, you've only read out all the things that I've (2:27) achieved.

You know, like if you read all the things that we've tried and failed at, (2:32) it would be a much longer podcast. That is so true. The other question that I'm always curious (2:37) about, Christy, is like, what have been the kind of the high highs or the low lows? Like, (2:42) what have been those moments that have transformed you into who you are? Take us through a couple (2:45) of those.

I am a huge believer that children are the future. And I think that's also been (2:53) scientifically proven. So my first kind of seminal moment happened when I was a kid (3:01) and I was such a nervous child.

I was a stutterer. I couldn't speak to my family, (3:09) let alone to a crowd. And so I was enrolled in speech pathology.

And one of the things we (3:14) had to do was memorize a poem and get up on top of the stage, like this huge stage, (3:19) and recite the poem. And of course, I did this, practiced and practiced, got on the stage, (3:26) forgot the first line, forgot the second line, and just, you know, was devastated, (3:32) absolutely devastated. I had to get prompted.

There was that awkward moment on stage when (3:36) everyone's staring at you and you're sweating and you've gone completely blank. (3:40) And I felt like an incredible failure. And my mom drove me home and dad was at work.

And that night (3:46) when he came home from work, he'd taken the time to go to the shops and buy me a card. And the card (3:52) said, congratulations, you did great. Wow.

Yeah. And I was not expecting that from him at all. I (4:01) felt like I disappointed everybody, I disappointed myself.

I felt like I was humiliated. And instead, (4:10) his reaction was the complete opposite. He was like, fantastic, you're learning how to fail.

 (4:15) Like, you're learning how to fall down and get back up again. Because it's really easy when (4:19) you're winning, isn't it? Everything's so easy. But what makes us strong is that ability to fall (4:26) down and then get back up.

And so now that's what I do for a job is speak to people on a stage. (4:32) And I get such a tremendous joy from that, because I know how hard it was. And I know (4:40) I'm passionate about it.

That's how you connect with people. That's how you can change the world. (4:44) So I can't be small forever.

I've got to get brave. That is a beautiful story. And I mean, (4:50) you know, you look at that transformation moment, and this is now what you're doing for a living.

 (4:54) And so it's amazing, isn't it? When those things happen, where you go, Oh, my God, I'm just going (4:58) to crawl into a hole and fall asleep or die, you know, all those things. And they become pivotal (5:06) moments in terms of what we have. Now, you've written 15 books, you work with so many different (5:10) companies, you come across people all the time.

And one of the things I'm a bit obsessed about (5:15) is to talk to you about how do we create more passionate people. So yeah, have you got a couple (5:19) of tips of things that you've seen work or you've done yourself or you implement with every team (5:23) or whatever that you work with that helps create passionate people? (5:27) Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such a big thing.

Like, the world is people, everything else is (5:33) doesn't matter. Like everything else is irrelevant. It's only about people because at the end of the (5:38) day, why do we do what we do? What drives you? What drives me? What drive? What do you want (5:44) from your business? What do you want from your life? That is totally down to people.

So I think (5:51) something that I always try and remember is like, people are trading their life for your money. (6:00) When they're your employee, right? If you're running a business and you're employing somebody (6:03) to show up every day, they're literally trading their life. The most valuable thing that we have (6:10) is time.

And they are giving that up so that they can work for you. So I think the number one thing, (6:17) if you want passionate people, if you want to develop an amazing team, a high performing team, (6:21) that's just like a pleasure to work with, we have to make sure that they're alive. (6:28) Is your team alive? Are your people there? Is there a heartbeat? Yeah.

And what makes that (6:34) heartbeat? I don't like sport. I don't like sport. I don't understand it.

But then you look at people (6:43) they're so passionate about sport. Why? It's a belonging. It's a game.

There's no meaning behind (6:53) running around with a ball. It's fun. So if we can introduce that element of belonging and play, (7:02) not frivolous, because that's a multi-billion dollar, trillion dollar industry, right? So if (7:09) making money is what you're passionate about, fun has absolutely got to be part of that.

 (7:14) If your punters aren't having fun, if they don't enjoy interacting with you, (7:19) they're not going to come back. So true. It's so true, isn't it? And to be able to do that, (7:26) that's beautiful.

I really love that. Yeah. It's why we're here.

I remember being a kid. (7:31) I love being a kid. I think I'm still a kid.

Thinking like, why am I trying to get good grades? (7:36) Because that's not fun. Oh, hang on. If I get good grades, I'll have more opportunity.

I'll be able (7:43) to do what I want. That's fun. And so boil it down.

Why do you come to work? What do you want? (7:51) What is it that you are here for? And how can I help you to achieve that and give you hope for (7:57) that? Yeah, yeah. I love that. I just think that is super cool in terms of being able to share (8:06) that.

And I love the fact that you just said, I'm still a kid, right? I still want to have lots of (8:09) fun. And I know that sometimes when you sort of hear speakers about, oh, you want to have more (8:14) fun. You do, right? Whether we call it the different things that we're hearing in different forms, (8:20) a lot of it is about having more joy, having more fun, having more passion in terms of what you do.

 (8:25) Otherwise, you sort of start to ask yourself, what is the actual point? And Shivani, there's so much (8:31) sadness in the world. And we're on this 24-7 news cycle of despair when what we need is hope, (8:39) right? And you can't have hope when you're mainlining the disasters of the world. You (8:45) can only have hope with personal interactions.

I saw you on the stage and I was brought to tears (8:52) from the message that you bring of hope and agency and empowering people to be the change. (9:00) It's not wishy-washy, it's the future, right? And we need that courage. So yeah, I want to thank (9:05) you for doing that for that entire room and for me.

Oh, beautiful. Thank you. You are so welcome.

 (9:11) And thank you for that acknowledgement. That's beautiful. Christy, this podcast is about you, (9:15) though.

The next question is, it's such a big question. And I'm so happy for you to take the (9:22) snippets that really made sense for you. And that really pops up for you when I ask that question.

 (9:27) And that is, what about business lessons? You know, like when you're doing the work that you (9:33) do, what are the lessons that you've learned? And sometimes, as we were speaking about earlier, (9:37) they come from failure. We go, oh my God, I had this monumental failure and this is kind of what (9:42) I really learned about myself. I know one of the businesses I started was a monumental failure.

 (9:46) I learned more from that in terms of due diligence and practices and systems to put in (9:50) than I did from other successful businesses. So whether it's based on failure, whether it's based (9:55) on success, and I know it's a really big question, but maybe one or two key learnings (9:58) that you have for business, like what are some of the things we can learn about business? (10:02) Yeah, absolutely. I think I was really late to the party with this one, (10:10) because I think the number one thing I've learned is to bring yourself to the table.

You can't be (10:14) anybody else. It's exhausting to try and be someone else. So an example of this, I was asked (10:21) to lecture a course at uni called Communicating with Asia for Engineers.

So the idea was that we (10:29) get a whole bunch of undergrad engineering students and teach them communication skills, (10:33) because I've lived in Japan and worked in Japanese companies for three years. So I was brought on (10:37) board to do that part of the module. And the engineers did it because it was easy credits.

 (10:45) And I looked, I had all the handover material, I looked at all the slides, (10:49) and I was immediately bored into a stupor. I was like, this is going to kill me to deliver. I am (10:57) going to die on the inside.

And so I had the courage to bring myself to the party. I was like, (11:03) no, no, no, delete, delete, delete, delete. And the students arrived.

And I said, you know what, (11:09) here's half of the slides. And for the rest of the course, we are going to be doing (11:12) roleplay and theatre. And they went, no.

 (11:19) Yeah, extremely vulnerable. They're very shy. They have no social skills.

Sorry. (11:30) And they hated the idea. But they came back the next week.

And they came back the next week. And (11:36) halfway through semester, they were talking to each other. And they were laughing.

And (11:40) they kept coming back. And at the end of that, the reviews were just out of the world. They had the (11:47) best time.

They learned so much. You can't learn communication from a PowerPoint slide. (11:52) And if I'd been too afraid, or too stuck in the routine, you know, as business owners, (11:57) we're on a good thing.

So we keep doing it. And you put your blinkers on and you're like, (12:02) this is a great niche that I'm in. I'm going to double down on that niche.

 (12:08) But sometimes the coolest stuff or the opportunities are (12:13) out of that pattern. You've got to break the pattern and look a little bit more out of the box. (12:20) I think in my speech, I was saying that's where innovation comes from, right? You've got to take (12:26) a risk.

You've got to be brave. And you've got to back yourself. So yeah.

 (12:30) Very true. And I love what you just said there. And I know that that was on the main point, (12:34) but you said, I decided to bring myself to the party, right? And so I think it's so important (12:43) as leaders who are doing whatever work they're doing, whether they're speaking or they're (12:47) leading a company that produces a million widgets or whatever it might be, you know, (12:51) when you bring yourself, when you bring that authenticity to it, that's what people see (12:55) in that leader or that facilitator in this case as well.

 (12:59) And that's the magnetism. That's what brings your people to you because they resonate with (13:03) what you stand for and what your passion is. You can't do that successfully for the 10 years that (13:10) it takes to build a good business.

You can only be yourself. So yeah, lean into it. (13:14) It's gorgeous.

It's so freeing. Yeah, that is so, so great. I love that.

 (13:22) What about, Kristy, when challenges come your way, right? You carry all this beautifulness (13:25) and energy and passion and zest and fun into all the different things that you do, (13:31) but we all face challenges, both work-wise and also personally. I'm always interested (13:36) and curious about, have you got a process? Do you have a methodology? Do you go, right, (13:40) that's it, I'm taking half a day off. How do you go about when challenges come your way, (13:46) like what's your system, your process, your ritual? (13:48) Okay.

So do you want the truth? (13:52) Always. (13:53) The truth is I get really angry and I have a giant outburst and I storm up and down (14:00) and I cannot believe it's happened to me and it's so unfair. And then, (14:07) and then I have a ritual, which is like sit, stroll, start.

The sit part is don't push send, (14:19) don't pick up the phone, rant as much as you want, but like just let it (14:25) percolate. Just, just sit with that discomfort because maybe there's something in it. (14:33) Just sit.

Yeah. And then the stroll part is go outside and have a walk, (14:39) wander, meander, let your, let the ideas come, let your subconscious mull over it. And usually (14:47) you'll come to an idea, okay, how do I start? Where do I go? What should I do? (14:52) And just okay to acknowledge that anger too, right? Just, I'm not really pissed.

I'm not (14:57) really angry in terms of what I do that and just acknowledging that. I really love that. I love (15:01) the, I love the sit part.

I reckon that's just great. Hit send, don't pick up the phone. Just (15:06) take that little bit of space from humans out of that as well.

I love that. Now you've written (15:12) 15 books, as I said in my intro, you probably got a gazillion other things you want to do. (15:16) Tell me about some of your future passions and aspirations.

Like what do you want to do (15:21) from here on? And maybe that's a year out or you look 20 years out. I don't know. Talk us through (15:26) that.

That's a really big thing for me at the moment because I've been working so extensively (15:33) with schools and with creatives for like the last probably 10 years I've been presenting (15:39) solidly and working solidly with that audience. And then I've looked around, I was in my lane, (15:47) right? I had my blinkers on. I'm like, Oh, I'm really good at this.

I love doing this. (15:51) And in the last couple of years, I've taken my blinkers off and realized everybody needs this. (15:58) Everybody needs to be able to think creatively and to find joy and to innovate in their business (16:08) because the world's changing so quickly and we don't know what it's going to hold.

And the only (16:12) way we can be brave about facing the future is to be ready for the future. So because I've got (16:19) that science background and the creativity background and I love adventure, I'm always (16:24) doing multi-day hikes and going on a camel for three days and jumping out of an airplane. (16:30) I think we need all those things together.

And so I want to start working more with adults and more (16:37) with businesses because they hold so much of the future as well. We are deciding, entrepreneurs (16:46) are deciding, what's it going to look like? What do we want tomorrow to be? I've got real firm (16:53) views on what I want tomorrow to be. I want it to be beautiful.

I want it to be hopeful. I want it (16:57) to be fun. I want it to be collaborative because that's how we achieve impossible goals.

And we've (17:03) got some big impossible challenges ahead of us. I love it. And thank you for spending all the time (17:12) with teachers and educators because at this time, having two teenagers in the house, it's so (17:17) important that they're getting some of the messages that you're sharing with them and how (17:21) they can incorporate some of that.

When you're giving so much, and you mentioned a tiny bit of (17:25) this when you're sitting and absorbing and strolling, et cetera, what about for your (17:29) mental wellness? Do you have daily, weekly, yearly rituals in terms of managing your mental wellness? (17:34) Something I'm coming across with leaders more and more that's becoming a challenge for them (17:38) when they're giving so much of themselves out. What do you do with your own mental wellness rituals? (17:44) It's so easy to be overwhelmed, isn't it? (17:50) Sometimes when you're very organized and prepared, and then something, as we know, (17:53) hits you from the left side and just completely takes that confidence away. (17:57) Then you have to go, oh my God, I've spent like a decade doing this and now I've lost that.

So easy, (18:03) so easy to fall off that. And for people even more so. But as you, as a leader, I'm interested in, (18:08) some people do things every day, some people do it weekly.

Some people go, that's my yearly (18:12) ritual where I just work on that from what I want to create. So how do you do it? (18:17) I have all the things. I have all the things.

So I try and say yes, as much as possible. I know (18:25) it's really cool to be like, oh, I have boundaries and say no. But then the more I say no, the more (18:31) perfectionist I get.

I'm like, I'm only going to do this and it's going to be really good. (18:36) And then I become more neurotic and I look inside myself all the time and I act less and I ruminate (18:44) more. So say yes more often.

And then say no more often. Because if you say yes too often, (18:52) you get too thin and you run out of energy and it's overwhelming again. So it's this constant (18:59) balance.

I try and move more and then I try and move less. So go out and exercise, stay home and (19:06) read a book. Go out and see people, lock myself in a room and just write.

It's balance. Everything is (19:13) balance. So I try and always keep myself in that happy place.

But see how I'm doing this with my (19:20) hands. For the audio listeners, it's kind of like a roller coaster. And on a roller coaster, (19:25) sometimes you feel uncomfortable and sometimes you feel safe.

And it's that balance, isn't it, (19:32) of pushing ourselves into discomfort. And almost that duality. That was the word that was coming (19:36) up for me as you were explaining that, that, you know, it can't be all one way.

Like, so I do it (19:41) more and then I do a bit of less and then I kind of do this and that. So it is that kind of roller (19:46) coaster, but almost like, and often when we use that word roller coaster, I always think it's (19:50) kind of, somebody's taking us on a roller coaster, but it's almost like you're taking yourself on a (19:54) roller coaster to go, now I'm going to go, and then I'm going to go. You almost manage that in (20:00) yourself.

I love that. I love that analogy. That's beautiful.

I like mountain biking and mountain (20:05) biking is like that, right? Because you're in charge of how fast you go, of which route you (20:11) choose. It's completely up to you and you only have a split second to decide. So you're absolutely (20:17) a hundred percent in the moment.

And I like to live in the moment as much as I can. That's beautiful. (20:23) Now we can keep chatting for like three hours.

What's the best way for people to come in contact (20:29) with you? What's the best way for people to follow you in some of the amazing work you do? (20:35) Spell my name correctly. So that's an ongoing issue. (20:40) Yeah.

It's amazing actually how many people have this shared experience of being completely (20:46) unable to be contacted when you spell their name wrong. I think you get like a supermodel from (20:50) America if you spell mine wrong, which is okay with me. So I'm christyburn.com, which is C-R-I-S-T-Y (20:57) B-U-R-N-E dot com.

And I'm also on LinkedIn. So if anyone wants to reach out and chat more, (21:04) I would love to have a conversation. Amazing.

Now you and I are going to hang out for a minute more. (21:09) So grateful for you. Thank you for making the time.

Thank you for all the work that you do. (21:13) And so appreciative that you came on today. Thank you for creating something out of nothing.

I think (21:18) it's just wonderful that two people having a conversation can create an energy that (21:24) helps the world. So yeah. Thank you.

(0:04) Hi everybody, my name is Shivani Gupta. I am your host at the Passion Institute podcast. (0:10) Today I'm going to be talking about a topic that is not much fun but we so need to talk about it, (0:15) toxic people in the workplace.

How do we manage them? It is one thing that causes our managers, (0:20) who I spend a lot of time training, coaching, how do we actually help them manage some toxic (0:26) people in the workplace. So let's just define what we're speaking about here. Toxicity is (0:32) not just about difficult people, right? So one thing is we go, what's the difference between (0:37) toxic people and difficult people? You know, toxic people are the ones that drain our energy.

 (0:42) They actually have an impact on reducing our productivity. So one is we see this difficult (0:47) behaviour over here, but when we actually look at toxic people, they actually then (0:53) actively contribute to creating a negative culture. And one of the things that studies (0:58) and research is showing is that that's the part that leads to high turnover, low morale, (1:03) even financial losses as a result of all those things directly, but also indirectly.

So in this (1:09) episode, what I want to do is I want to kind of break down how do you identify toxic people, (1:13) how do you manage them, and what you want to obviously try and do is create a passionate, (1:18) driven culture. So let's talk about some statistics and why we want to be able to do that. (1:23) Just in the US alone, toxic workplaces are costing $223 billion in turnover costs (1:32) over the five years, according to a number of different research papers that have been around.

 (1:38) And toxic people can be anywhere. They're not people down here. Sometimes they're our (1:41) peers, sometimes they're our bosses, and obviously sometimes they're the people that work for us.

 (1:46) They kill passion, they kill productivity, and they absolutely kill innovation. What we want to (1:53) kind of work out how do we spot it and how do we apply that passion model to be able to manage (1:59) them? So as I said earlier, toxic people aren't just difficult, right? They actively harm the (2:05) workplace culture. And so the types of different types of people that we get are the manipulator.

 (2:11) So people that really manipulate, they backstab you, they have their own agenda in terms of what (2:20) they want to be able to make that work. Then we get the energy vampires, and you might have heard (2:24) that they're the ones that are constantly negative. They're always the victim.

Something's always (2:29) happened to them compared to the rest of the world, and they kind of suck the energy out of you, (2:34) but also sometimes out of a whole room. And we see those people in the workplace. We also get what I (2:39) call the credit stealer.

People that take other people's work and they go, this is an idea I had, (2:45) even though you might have helped them generate it. This recently happened to me. I actually helped (2:49) an author generate a name for her book.

I saw her do all the PR, even talk to some of the people (2:55) in a room where I was in the room. No, hey, thanks, Shivani, for helping me brainstorm it. (3:02) I gave her that name.

Anyway, so just the credit stealer in terms of what actually occurs. (3:06) Then we get the micromanager. How is a micromanager a toxic person? They're just (3:10) very detailed, but what they do is that they create stress for people because people don't (3:16) feel empowered.

They feel that they're constantly being judged and constantly being micromanaged. (3:21) And so sometimes that can lead to bullying, but absolutely what it does is reduced (3:24) trust in the business. And then we get the downright workplace bullying.

And these are (3:30) the people that really thrive on intimidation. They've got that aggressive behavior or passive, (3:36) aggressive behavior, and we see that. Harvard Business School talks about the fact that (3:42) avoiding a toxic worker is twice as beneficial as hiring a star performer.

Let me repeat that. (3:50) When I read that, I was like, my mind was blind. Avoiding a toxic worker is twice as beneficial (3:58) as hiring a star performer.

Avoid hiring and manage the toxic people in your workplace (4:03) because they have such a big thing. So how do we actually create more passion (4:10) in terms of what we're trying to do? Well, with toxic people, we want to have proactive boundaries. (4:15) We want to be aware of what they're actually doing in some of their behaviors.

 (4:19) We want to make sure that all of our communication is very strategic, direct, non-emotional. (4:26) We also want to be able to create a support network from them. We want to lean in on leadership (4:31) and HR and mentors if we need to be.

And we want to be able to influence their positivity (4:35) because we want to shift the conversations we have. We want them to take ownership of their (4:40) reactions and not other people's, and we want the non-engagement. We want to avoid feeding the drama (4:48) when we need to be able to do that.

The study from Stanford talks about the fact (4:55) that toxic environments can be harmful as actually being in a smoking environment. (4:59) We know how bad that is. I love the Netflix CEO, Reed Hastings.

They've got a policy that says, (5:06) no brilliant jerks, because toxic people cost more than they contribute. The other one, (5:11) and I'm going to swear for a moment, that I've seen a couple of sporting teams have, (5:16) they have a no dickhead policy. So they say, if you're a dickhead, we don't want you here at all.

 (5:21) And the other thing is toxic people have a psychological impact on teams as well, because (5:25) they increase stress and that teases them and burnout. And particularly if they're people that (5:30) are leaders that we're working for that are toxic, there's a journal of applied psychology just talks (5:35) about the ripple effect people like that can have as well. And psychological safety is a really, (5:40) really big thing in our workplaces these days, and toxic people either influence or they can (5:45) actually completely destroy that as well.

How can leaders reduce some of that toxicity? Well, (5:54) one thing is to have a zero tolerance policy. One of the things you say is, you know what, (5:59) we're going to be very, very strict in terms of workplace bullying. I remember my son being at a (6:03) particular school where he was getting bullied a bit, particularly racial bullying, which was (6:06) absolutely disgusting and very hurtful for him.

I copped it when I moved to Australia. I thought (6:11) it justified in my head. It was because I had just moved to Australia at the age of 11, and my (6:15) English still had this heavy Indian accent.

He doesn't have that, and he's still got it. And (6:19) that first school did nothing. And so they just didn't have policies on it.

When I asked them (6:24) about their bullying policies, they only had the physical bullying, but nothing around racial (6:30) bullying. The second school that he's gone to, they have a zero tolerance policy on it. So your (6:34) workplace could actually have a zero tolerance policies around certain things.

The other thing (6:39) is we need to train our managers. I'm so big on making sure that our managers are trained to know (6:44) how to coach people, including spotting, as well as then addressing the toxic behaviours that might (6:49) be happening before that one apple spoils the car. We also need to empower our employees to speak (6:55) up without fear.

So if they're having some issues and challenges, that they feel safe enough to be (7:00) able to do that. The other part is how do we actually handle toxic bosses? So one of the (7:09) things is, look, I'm calling out some of that behaviour professionally. And one way you could (7:13) do that is to say, hey, I noticed that that feedback wasn't constructive.

How can I make that (7:18) a bit more, how could you make that a bit more solution oriented so that I can actually (7:24) really do something about it? The other part that is really hard, and I still get triggered from it, (7:29) is how to not let toxic people trigger you. So what couple of things that you say to yourself (7:34) when you come around them, you're almost going to put yourself into this is going to be expected. (7:38) I'm not going to take this on.

This is not about me. And I often, the other strategy that I have (7:43) is to be able to seek allies because toxic people lose power when they're a little bit more isolated (7:48) they thrive on having other people around where they can pass that. And you want to leverage your (7:54) human resources or your HR people, you know, when that's there.

How do you detox a workplace that's (8:00) had, you know, toxicity, but how do you reignite that passion in a team or in a workplace that's (8:07) happened? Well, culture always starts at the top. We've got to have leaders that have got a model (8:11) that trust and accountability. We've got to have regular feedback loops.

And again, we are really (8:16) big at the Passion Institute talking about the importance of feedback loops constantly. And you (8:22) want to encourage that openness because toxicity, you know, thrives, grows when there's silence, (8:28) when there's transparency, it can then cure that. And how do we replace toxicity with a passion (8:34) driven workplace? Well, we want to have that growth and that purpose and passion.

And we want to be (8:39) able to talk about that we want to create high psychological safe organisations that really help (8:45) us to be able to do that. So as a couple of takeaways, toxicity is a choice. And so is passion, (8:51) right? We can, we can really create as leaders in our businesses that every team's got challenges, (8:58) I haven't come across any team in my 30 plus years of corporate, working with my businesses, (9:03) working with over 150 companies, every team's got some challenges, even a team of two, there's always (9:09) some sort of challenges.

But passionate workplaces, they don't to let the toxicity cloud it and take (9:16) over. I'd also love for you as you're listening to this watching this to be able to maybe identify (9:21) toxic workplace that you've got on your team or with a particular individual and work out what (9:26) action you are going to take. Thank you for tuning in.

I hope that you continue to create (9:32) passionate people, passionate cultures. And please let us know if you've got any questions or (9:38) if you could take a moment to write and review the podcast.

(0:03) Hello everybody and welcome to the Passion Institute podcast. I'm really excited about (0:08) sharing with you today why it is so important when you are hiring people to make sure that (0:14) they're self-aware. In fact, if we could test for self-awareness, I would almost say (0:18) it's the number one thing that we're looking for.

See, as a leader, when you're hiring a key talent, (0:24) we already know what their skills are. They've already put that into their CV and all we're (0:27) trying to do is make sure that those skills are translatable and we can actually get them (0:32) into your business when they join you. What we don't know is their attitude.

What we don't know (0:37) is their awareness and imagine if we could pick some of that up and save ourselves so much stress, (0:43) time and money, particularly if they are the wrong person. Now, the hiring game has changed, (0:49) as you already know. The job market shifted.

We are seeing people with an abundance of technical (0:55) skills, but the self-awareness for me is a game changer. Harvard Business Review talks about the (1:01) 95% of people think that they are self-aware, but only 10% to 15% actually are. That's not great, (1:10) is it? That is not a great statistic.

In this episode, I want to talk about why self-awareness (1:16) is such a valuable trait in interviews and how it can really fuel your passion and your performance (1:22) and your purpose in terms of what they are. Let's firstly define what self-awareness is. (1:27) It's an ability for an individual to be able to recognise their emotions, (1:32) their strengths, their weaknesses, and I guess the impact that they have on others.

 (1:37) In the beautiful book, Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman, (1:41) he talked about that self-awareness is a foundation of great leadership. When we get people (1:46) that are there, whatever level of business that they're coming in, they're going to be able to (1:50) lead their role, maybe even lead other people if they've got a team. When you look at companies, (1:56) big companies like Google and Netflix, they're actually looking at self-awareness as a core (2:01) competency when they're actually hiring as well.

You've heard me talk about it, passion a lot. This (2:07) is called the Passion Institute podcast. The framework that I want to introduce here that (2:12) when we talk about Passion Institute, we talk about P is for purpose, A is for adaptability, (2:19) your strengths, your shortcomings, your influence, your ownership, and the way that you navigate (2:23) conflict.

What we want to do is that we know that when we get people that are self-aware, (2:29) we know that they learn faster because they've got a growth mindset, because they're self-aware (2:33) of areas that they're not really great in. We want to hire people that are going to be able to adapt, (2:39) that are going to be able to change with what our business is going to go through as well. (2:44) The other thing I wanted to share with you is some research from Tasha Urich, I believe that (2:49) is how that name is pronounced, and they talk about the fact that the employees that are (2:56) self-aware actually move through the organisation faster because they're able to adapt much quicker.

 (3:02) Being able to test that at the beginning and then being able to have people come into your business (3:06) and then be able to get promoted, A, from a retention perspective, but B, from people that (3:12) are natural leaders that are self-aware will absolutely stay in your business and become (3:17) future leaders in your business as well. LinkedIn also found a study that employees (3:22) who reflect on feedback improve performance by almost a quarter, like almost 25% compared to (3:29) those that don't. The other reason that we want to have people that are self-aware is (3:33) we want to make sure that they make better decisions as a result of that.

They are able (3:38) to solve problems better. Korn Ferry talks about the fact that self-aware leaders perform their (3:43) peers by 31%. That is huge.

Satya Nadella, who was the CEO at Microsoft, transformed that culture (3:53) by having this notion about growth mindset and the fact that people that are self-aware usually (3:59) have that growth mindset as well. Stronger leadership and emotional intelligence, when (4:05) you look at the exe over LinkedIn, leaders like Jeff Weiner, they prioritise self-awareness in (4:11) their hiring. Self-aware people don't just manage people, they inspire people to work for them (4:17) because they're also able to talk about the things that they don't do well, their (4:21) failures very well, which also, believe it or not, inspires the people in terms of who they work here.

 (4:28) It's really also important that we get right people when we're hiring them that fit our culture. (4:33) It is so important that we almost get a bit cult-like in our interviewing process (4:38) because we want these people to be successful long-term. Gallup studies also talk about the (4:43) fact that self-aware employees are 10 times more likely to align with your company values and (4:49) culture.

10 times. Netflix also hires people that are self-aware in terms of the behavioural (4:57) questions that they actually ask as well. The other thing we want when people come in is that (5:01) they become great team players and then their communication is really important.

How does (5:05) self-awareness link into that? Well, people that are self-aware, according to the Journal (5:10) of Organisational Behaviour, have 40% fewer conflicts. Why do people leave? Because they (5:16) have conflicts, often with their manager. So if we can get people that are self-aware, (5:20) they will actually have less conflicts in the workplace as well.

And how do we actually spot (5:26) for that? So the big question is how do we spot for self-awareness? Well, here are some questions (5:32) and here are some draft questions. Tell me about a time that you received some pretty feedback that (5:38) was a bit critical of you. Tell me about what that feedback was and tell me about how did you (5:42) respond.

So one of the things we're talking about is how do they respond? How do they shift their (5:46) behaviour as a result of getting some of that? For us, one of the things we do is we have a (5:51) passion model and we introduce that in our interviews. And we say to people, take a moment, (5:56) we're not expecting work out of the seven areas to be your number one passion, but what we are (6:00) asking is how do you spend your time and energy now? Could you just take a moment to rate that (6:04) and then talk us through what your top passions are? And again, no judgement. We want to get to (6:09) know you rather than tell us about yourself.

Tell us about your passions. Tell us about what you're (6:14) obsessed about. Tell us about how you spend time.

Another question could be, what's the (6:19) professional weakness that you've already identified? And what are you actively working on? (6:23) What are some of the steps that you're taking to actively work on that particular weakness? And the (6:28) other question which I love is how do you measure your success beyond your job performance? So you (6:33) might be growing great in your job. As a leader, I'm giving you great feedback in that, but how do (6:38) you measure your own success? What do you define as success? And seeing what people's notion of (6:43) success is and what that means beyond the job, beyond what they're actually aware of. So I could (6:49) keep going about this particular topic for a day non-stop.

I want you to consider a couple of these (6:55) things as I come to a close of this particular podcast. In a world that is surrounded by AI (7:03) and automation and everything being systemised, self-awareness is one of those human advantages (7:09) that we can have as leaders by actually having businesses because we want people that are more (7:15) resilient and we want high passionate people because we know that passionate people also (7:21) create great high performing teams. So I would encourage you as you're listening to this podcast (7:26) to reflect on your self-awareness.

Where would you rate yourself? How can you take some of the (7:31) things I've shared in creating some of the questions in your interview process? And if (7:37) you've got any ideas or if you're an expert in some of this stuff, I would love to speak to you (7:43) as an expert that we could interview on this particular podcast. Please take a moment (7:47) to review and rate this podcast and thank you for tuning in.

(0:03) Welcome to the Passion Institute podcast. My name is Shivani Gupta and I'm your host. (0:08) Today I'm going to be talking about as a manager or leader and entrepreneur, how do you lead with (0:12) tough love? I got so excited about this particular topic, I actually wrote a whole book on it.

It's (0:16) called Tough Love for Leaders, which you can have a look at passioninstituteglobal.com (0:23) and have a look at the resources page and have a look at being able to download that book. But (0:29) one of the things I wanted to do was talk to you about some of the principles of that and why is (0:35) it that we want to deal with that? Why do we want to actually have that tough love and what does (0:40) that actually mean? So I wanted to kind of define because often I've come across that term originally (0:45) many years ago around parenting. So my kids are 16 and almost 15 and so one of the things that (0:51) I've seen people do is talk about the fact that it is a, you know, how do we give tough love to (0:58) our children? And so that's an important thing in terms of being able to give them tough love, (1:02) but what does that actually mean? Well, that means that most people in my experience are either (1:07) really tough and they really need to learn the skills of becoming a bit more loving.

And when (1:14) it comes to workplaces and I'm talking as, you know, managers and some people go, what do you (1:19) mean like I need to become more loving? You know, how would I love my employees? Well, we kind of (1:24) want to have more heart spark stuff. We want to have more empathy. We want to have all those leadership (1:28) skills that we've been asked to connect our head and our heart and our gut in terms of what we want (1:32) to be able to do.

And really everybody talks about how people are their best assets, but are they? (1:37) And if you were their best assets, then you would have more heart space. You know, why, you know, (1:42) why would you be able to do that? And, you know, what does that actually mean? If you are really (1:46) loving and really a great listener and you have a lot of empathy for your people, but sometimes you (1:51) feel like people take you for a ride and you don't have enough tough, then one of the things that you (1:57) want to be able to do is look at it from a perspective of, okay, how do I actually become (2:02) a bit tougher? It doesn't mean I'm meaner. Sometimes tough can have that connotations of, (2:07) you know, listening less or doing things, but it's kind of, I need to be a little bit less emotional.

 (2:11) I need to kind of find that balance between my head and heart space in terms of what I actually (2:15) do as well. So I wanted to take you some of the principles that I've got in the book. As I said, (2:19) if you want to go into different details and more details of that, check that book out.

I also wanted (2:26) to give that preface and let you know that I actually use Sanskrit, which is a very traditional (2:31) old language in India. I grew up in India, even though I didn't learn Sanskrit, but I loved some (2:37) of the Hindi and the Sanskrit words. And there's some of the principles that I actually use.

 (2:41) So the first principle that I speak about is Bolo, which means speak up, which means really, (2:47) if we don't learn to speak up, you've got to learn to speak up your truth. Now, (2:51) the key words here is your, right? It's not true. It's your truth.

Because when we speak up our (2:57) truth, it actually is not about, it's actually not about what the truth is. It's the truth from your (3:07) perspective. So when two people are having a conversation or 10 people are having a conversation (3:12) around a table in a workplace, you know, everybody will speak their version of the truth, their (3:16) perspective of the truth.

For example, I can give the same leadership principle. There is a (3:22) 2000 plus year old model that is called that in leadership, we need to find a balance between (3:26) logos, ethos, and pathos, which is logic, emotion, and passion, right? And we find that balance, (3:32) we become great leaders. I can give that to model to 10 different people, and they'll have (3:36) a completely different perspective on it.

And hence that model has been taught for 2000 plus years. (3:41) And so whenever you're speaking, you need to be able to speak your truth. And it's so (3:46) important to be able to, you know, be able to have a look at a great leaders and great managers (3:50) are great communicators.

There's no two ways about it. In fact, most organizations, when you (3:55) say to them, what's something you can improve, they'll always say communication. They never go (3:58) my communication is perfect.

Communication is always an issue. Communication is always the key. (4:03) And so it's really important to be able to speak up that truth and involve.

The second one is what (4:08) I call prashantsha. Prashantsha actually means praise. One of the things that some of our (4:14) cultures that we grow up in, depending on which side of the world you're listening, this podcast (4:17) is we are not great at giving praise.

We are also not great. Many of us in many cultures (4:22) at receiving praise. But in terms of a manager and leader here, I'm talking about giving praise.

 (4:27) We want to be able to reinforce behaviors that are great. We don't want to be able to (4:32) give formal feedback to people around direct and, you know, redirect some of their behaviors and say, (4:38) hey, you were doing this great. In my latest book, getting your people to step up.

I talk about the (4:42) need to catch people doing something right. That's the whole point of communication. And when we can (4:47) give prashantsha or praise that is well-deserved, that is timely, that is real.

So it's not this (4:53) hot, fluffy stuff of saying, hey, great meeting. That's not prashantsha. What real praise and (4:58) prashantsha is, is when we actually are able to say, hey, the way that you dealt with that in that (5:03) meeting, I thought that was fantastic.

That's praise. It's 10 seconds. It's 30 seconds.

It's (5:08) frequently done. And when we do that, we start to build up a really interesting culture in our (5:14) businesses. The third principle around tough love that I wanted to speak about is vinodha.

 (5:18) Vinodha is, you know, what excites you, right? Vinodha is joy. So why don't we actually come (5:26) across having more fun in the workplace? You know, Gallup studies show that 87% of people (5:31) are dispassionate about their work, which means only 30%, 13% of your workforce is really passionate (5:36) about what they do. It's not a very high percentage, is it? And so how can we actually (5:41) get people more excited? How can we understand their passions more? How can we, you know, (5:46) really tap into people's natural abilities? You know, long days are gone where we used to say, (5:51) that's your weakness in the workplace, and you need to get better at it.

Now we're actually (5:55) saying, actually, let's do strength-based learning. So if you're really good at something, (5:59) let's do more of the stuff that you're really good at, rather than finding weaknesses, (6:02) like we do in our school systems, doing that. So workplaces are getting smarter at saying, (6:07) how do we help you do that? How do we get you spending more of your day doing what you love? (6:11) And one of the things that you want to do is have more fun in the workplace.

 (6:15) The leaders that I had fun working with, I can think of my first job, a guy called John, who was (6:21) one of the supervisors there. I am still in contact with him. People that are not fun, we never stay (6:25) in contact with when we leave those workplaces.

And it's not about having fun for fun's sake, (6:30) but it's about creating fun and rapport with our people, so they enjoy coming to work, (6:35) and we can have a conversation about it. The next principle I talk about, Vishwas. Vishwas (6:40) means a faith.

It means the fact that we actually need to believe in our people. (6:45) I quote, partly because Gandhi had such an influence on my life growing up in India, (6:49) I talk about Ahimsa. Ahimsa is the belief that is rooted in a lot of cultures, which is about (6:57) non-violence.

We talk about non-violence either to animals or non-violence to women, (7:01) but how do we have non-violence in our communication? How can we actually communicate (7:07) without that? Because people always are looking for three things. People are always looking for (7:11) someone to believe in, which is you, the leader, something to believe in, which is the vision, (7:15) and someone to believe in them. That's what they're looking for.

They really want to be there, (7:20) most of them, when they're spending the hours that they do away from their families, (7:23) away from other areas of their interest and love, to be there. So we want to be able to (7:28) maximize that. The next principle I want to talk to you about is Samaya.

It's about timing, (7:33) and that timing is everything. One of the things that we want to do is remove filters from our (7:38) life. When we get into the cadence and the rhythm of what we create, and how we hold our meetings, (7:43) and how we link into the bigger stuff, that's where we actually create better time.

 (7:51) And we become really aware of the time that we've got, and what we've got to do in a day, (7:56) in a week, in a month, or a year. And as the saying goes, we underestimate what we can achieve in a (8:00) year, and overestimate what we can achieve in the next month. So we load ourselves up and feel (8:04) terrible because we haven't achieved what we set out to achieve.

And then one of the things that (8:08) happens is that, yeah, that we run out of time to do the things that really, really matter, (8:14) that make us more effective. The next principle that I want to talk about is Thapar. Thapar (8:19) actually means slap, which doesn't sound like a great principle, where you go, how can you talk (8:23) about slapping employees in a book, Shivani? Well, I talk about the notion that there are (8:27) people that frustrate us so much, we do want to slap them.

But talking about Ahimsa and nonviolence, (8:33) what we want to do is do silent slap. So when people aren't behaving very well, (8:37) when they're having goes at each other, how do we actually do a silent slap? I remember my (8:42) grandfather taught me that principle when I was about, you know, five or six years of age, (8:46) I didn't really get it. And as I got older, he would repeat this principle.

And he said, (8:49) when people haven't treated you well, you don't always have to embarrass them so they get to (8:53) save face in front of other people. But one on one, you need to let them know that that behaviour (8:57) is not okay. You need to bring that up with them.

Because without it, you're going to continue to (9:02) have HR issues and people issues in your businesses. So yeah, how do you do that? (9:06) How do you do it? So you do it respectfully, but you still raise those challenging issues. (9:12) The next chapter and the next principle I talk about is Dharma.

Dharma is actually what your (9:18) purpose is. You know, are you leading your purpose? Do you know that the work that you're doing (9:22) links into your purpose? Does it have to be a whole purpose? No. But does it link into (9:26) your purpose? Or does it give you the opportunities and the resources, whether it's money, time, (9:31) energy, to be able to do stuff what you love.

So some people say, look, I don't really love my work. (9:36) But my work gives me a great income, I get to help people. But as from that income, I get to help my (9:41) family.

So they can link it into that Dharma and that bigger purpose in terms of why they exist. (9:46) And the last principle I talk about there is asana. Asana is a word used in yoga.

 (9:50) It means a position. We say now we're going to do this asana or we're going to do, (9:55) you know, the downward dog asana. And so it's a pose or a position that we do that.

 (10:02) And one of the things I talk about in that part of Tough Love in my book is that one of the things (10:06) that happens when you go to yoga is and you're in a particular asana and in a particular pose, (10:11) is that the yoga teacher will constantly say, do not look at the person next to you. Don't worry (10:15) about what the other person next to you is doing. Focus on your pose.

Focus on your strength. (10:20) That may be a very easy pose for you. This might be a excruciating pose for you.

But what you want (10:26) to do is take yourself on the edge of comfort and discomfort, not that you're in pain, but on the (10:30) edge of discomfort. And I've always loved that from the yoga teachers and classes that I've been to (10:35) over 20 years. And so I talk about in that is how can we really work with our people to say to them, (10:42) don't worry about what your colleague or other people are getting unless there's a, you know, (10:45) an equity in pay, for example, which is an issue you can bring up.

But stop focusing on other (10:50) people. Focus on your position. Work out where you can learn best and grow.

Get to the level of (10:54) discomfort and comfort where you are and really inviting our employees to take on different asanas (11:00) and what they can do. So I hope that you got some things out of it. If you've got any questions, (11:06) please let me know.

Find where you are on the scale. And if you are very much towards love, (11:12) let's go find in the middle. Right.

And if you're very much towards love, let's go and find in the (11:17) middle. And so the idea is great leaders find the balance. And they also know when to step into love (11:22) and they also know when to step into time.

I hope this helped you. Please let me know your thoughts. (11:26) Love for you to take a moment to review and write the podcast.

 (11:30) Look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks for tuning in.

(0:03) Hi everybody and welcome to the Passion Institute podcast. I'm really excited to (0:08) be your host and talk to you today about Difficult Conversations Made Easy. (0:13) When I'm working with managers and leaders in businesses, one of the most challenging (0:17) things that they deal with is challenging people on how to have difficult conversations.

 (0:22) And it's not a very easy thing. And even though I teach it, can I just firstly, (0:27) upfront, just say to you, it is not very easy. I've been having challenging conversations for (0:32) a long time, you know, initially it started off in my family, which I'll share in a moment, (0:37) then in the corporate world, then running my own businesses, then with teams and other businesses.

 (0:42) And now I teach it, it's never, never easy. So when I say things like difficult conversations (0:47) made easy, it's never quite easy. But, you know, I just wanted to share a little bit about (0:55) me when I grew up in a household, which was very Indian, and very much what your parents say is (1:03) what you must do.

Or even not just your parents, but even people that are elder to you. So when (1:08) they ask you for different things, you did them. And you didn't question it.

One of the things (1:11) that happened, though, at the age of 11, my parents decided to move from India to Australia. (1:17) So as I came as part of this new culture, what became interesting was, huh, I've got these (1:22) friends that are constantly arguing with their parents, swearing at their parents, which was (1:26) pretty rude. So I still don't, even though I'm much, much older, I still don't swear in front (1:32) of my parents, I do now stand up.

And if I don't believe in something, I will actually raise that (1:36) rhythm. But initially, it wasn't very easy, it was a very difficult thing to raise that. So for me, (1:42) being a fairly logical person, but also over the years have learned to tap into my heart.

So (1:47) combining my head and heart space, one of the things I found that it's that's a really great (1:51) key when you're having difficult conversations. Because if I just stay in my head, sometimes I'm (1:55) actually coming out of ego, or I'm thinking about things logically and not really emotionally. (1:59) But at the same time, if I'm just thinking from my heart, and I'm just thinking about all the (2:04) things that I'm emotionally triggered by, or emotionally, this is a great way to sell this (2:08) particular thing, I'm not actually appealing to the head.

So difficult conversations are really (2:13) important when you come from both mindset, when you come from a mindset of mind and heart. And (2:19) one of my favorite words, which I've written a chapter about in my recent book, and I talk about (2:24) some of the work and the trainings and speaking that I do is Shoshin. Shoshin is a Japanese word (2:28) that talks about open heart and open mind.

And so it's important that when you want to have (2:33) difficult conversations, you come in with a Shoshin mindset, you come in with an open heart, (2:38) and also an open mind. The other thing when it comes to difficult conversations is we don't want (2:44) to kind of do them unprepared, we don't want to walk into difficult conversations and go, yep, (2:49) that's how I think that's what I feel, I'm just going to give them a piece of my mind, not a (2:53) great way to go into a difficult conversation. Difficult conversations from that headspace that (2:58) I spoke about actually need some preparation.

And so it's really important to think about the clear (3:04) outcome that you've got in mind. So I use the GROW model a lot, which is the original model that I (3:11) saw, even though a lot of people claim that it's theirs. The first time I saw that was 25 years ago (3:16) in a book called The Doubt of Coaching, T-A-O of Coaching by Max Landsberg.

And he talked about the (3:23) GROW is the acronym for goals, and what's your outcome, what your reality is where you are now, (3:29) the O is for options, and the W is willingness and your attitude to be able to put something (3:34) in action and how committed are you to doing so. So the G part of the GROW model is really the (3:40) important part here when difficult conversations, you really want to have a clear outcome of what (3:44) it is that you're actually trying to get to. And what is your goal? What's the ideal outcome at (3:49) the end of it? Now you might not get to your ideal outcome, but at least you go into the conversation (3:52) prepared.

The hard part of difficult conversations is really about empathy. How do I, when I have an (3:59) open heart, I'm more empathetic. When I have an open heart, I am a much more active listener.

 (4:07) And when I do those two things, if there is some tension that arises either within me or the other (4:13) person I'm speaking to, then I'm able to diffuse it a little bit better. I'm able to address it a (4:22) little bit better. So there's that empathy and that active listening happening as well.

 (4:25) And the other thing that I do when we're having difficult conversations is I let people know. (4:28) I don't want it to be difficult and they've got to kind of work out that it's a difficult conversation. (4:33) I know that sounds really simple, but sometimes I will start off with things around, hey, I wanted (4:38) to have this conversation with you.

It is a really difficult conversation for me. It might not be a (4:42) difficult conversation for you, but it's a bit challenging for me. And I really wanted to talk (4:47) to you about X, Y, Z. Let them know up front.

Don't leave them guessing. Or at least, even if (4:53) it's not challenging for them or difficult for them, at least you're kind of owning it. You're (4:58) letting them know that it's a challenging conversation, a difficult conversation for you.

 (5:03) And as you go through, for example, that difficult, you know, that grow model in that (5:07) difficult conversation. So what's your goal that we've just talked about? Where are we at now? (5:12) So you would then use that and say, hey, where we are at now is X, Y, Z from my perspective. Do you (5:18) have a different perspective on that? The options that I see are, or even in the options part, you (5:22) might actually even start off by saying, hey, where do you think, what are some of the other options (5:27) and what are some of the options that you can think of? I've got a couple of ideas.

What are (5:31) the thoughts that you have around that? So what you end up doing is you're creating this difficult (5:35) conversation using a coaching methodology. And when you do that, it gives it a framework. It (5:40) gives it, takes some emotion out of it, takes some heat out of it.

And you're able to actually (5:45) address that. And when we start generating options, whether the other person or the other people are (5:49) starting to generate that, or you start to generate that, if they've got no ideas or you want to add (5:55) to that, then what you're doing is kind of talking through each of those options and saying, okay, (6:00) how do we actually do that? How do we address that? And the W part is the willingness or the (6:06) action that you're going to take, your willingness to take action. And sometimes we'll say, well, (6:10) okay, on a scale of one to 10, 10 being I am sold, and one being I'm not quite sold at all.

 (6:16) And I'm not sure I'm going to action anything out of these options that we've looked at, (6:20) is to say, on a scale of one to 10, where do you sit? And if somebody says six, you go, okay, well, (6:25) that's kind of just over the middle of the road. What will it take to get to seven or eight? (6:29) And what else do you need? What other commitment do you need? Or what other options do we need to (6:34) speak about? So you feel like you don't have to be a 10, but just so that you're at that eight, (6:37) nine or 10. And so following up and making sure that that accountability is in there, (6:43) take some of that heat out of it.

The other thing I just wanted to mention is that this is one of (6:48) the most common things that in my experience, managers avoid doing, and humans avoid doing. (6:55) So difficult conversations do give us butterflies. They're not very easy.

I've been doing them for a (7:00) long time, whether it's with myself, my husband, my children, who are two teenagers, (7:06) with my staff, in my training and some of the work. It's something that we have to do constantly. (7:13) And we have to be aware of the fact that it's not fun.

It's never probably going to be fun. (7:18) And if you're finding difficult and tough conversations fun, I think you might have (7:21) other challenges around that. But what we want to do is make them easier.

It becomes easier with (7:26) practice. And one of the most common things that I see managers doing, particularly seeing that (7:32) a lot of this podcast is really for leaders and managers and entrepreneurs who might be tuning (7:37) in and looking at how they can create a culture and a place. We want to train our managers in (7:45) how to have difficult conversations.

When we avoid the difficult conversations, not only (7:49) do we miss an opportunity to be able to give feedback to people, but the other thing that (7:54) happens is that we don't address it. Other people can see that we haven't addressed it as well. (8:01) And that becomes an issue.

So we end up starting to erode the culture that we've built. The person (8:07) either doesn't know or is completely unaware or they're aware and they're going, okay, she's not, (8:11) he's not going to raise that with me. So they feel like they can get away with more.

Their (8:15) behavior can become worse and more erratic. They start taking more risks around that because they're (8:20) going, my manager's not going to raise anything. But the other thing that happens is we also see (8:24) other people starting to raise it and that becomes an issue as well.