Shivani Gupta 

I'm Shivani Gupta, and welcome to the Ask Shivani podcast. I believe that one of the best presents that you can give yourself is time to be able to sit down and ask yourself some questions. I believe that the quality of the question that you ask yourself will determine the quality of your life.

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Shivani podcast. The topic I'm going to cover today has been talked about for many, many years, perhaps even a couple of decades, the imposter syndrome. What does the imposter syndrome mean? And how does that apply to you?

I'm just also going to give you a little bit of a warning, I get pretty passionate about this particular topic. So if I swear, just giving you a little bit of an update that I might end up swearing on this particular podcast. And I hope that doesn't offend you. It's not meant to be offensive. But if it comes out, you just know ahead of time, it's on its way, potentially.

So the third thing I want to talk about the imposter syndrome. What does it mean, a lot of people I come across saying, Oh my god, I feel this imposter syndrome! I know, I have experienced it. And I am so going to talk about that openly on this particular podcast as well. Now, research says that 70% of us 70% of humans, male and female, experienced the imposter syndrome. So before we deep dive deep into this topic, that is huge. That is more than two thirds of us that feel like an imposter at some point or continuously in our life. And 30% of them are actually high achievers. This number blew my mind. I was like, what do you mean higher achievers? How could high achievers have that? And then I went actually, I would like to think that I'm one of those high achievers, maybe not as much as the example I'm about to give you the Atlassian founder. But absolutely I’m a high achiever. And I feel like the imposter, I feel like that at times and we found out that I'm actually not that good or actually not that smart.

So recently, the Atlassian founder, Mike Cannon - Brookes came out and spoke about the fact that he felt like an imposter. Now, Atlassian is one of the stories of the decade in terms of their growth and what they've been able to achieve. It's big, if you want to check them out, go to Atlassian and look up Mike Cannon - Brookes. And you might also be able to have a look at the video that he recently did speaking about being an imposter. And when you look at people like that, you know, come on, man. You've had phenomenal success - how could you feel like an imposte? But that doesn't matter. As we kind of dive into this topic. You could be super successful and still feel like it. You could be super unsuccessful and feel like it. We all feel it more than two thirds of us. So I wanted to talk a little bit more about research. Now. Martin Seligman is a name I hear all the time. People talk about Martin Seligman from a positive psychology perspective, a lot of people are studying it. Also, there are a number of schools that are starting to speak about, you know, talking about things and understanding the positive psychology framing things differently. But when it specifically comes to the imposter syndrome, I love the way that Martin Seligman defines it, he says that there are three different parts.

There is somebody that can take from an imposter syndrome, something personally so this person thinks they're they take things personally, somebody says something to them, they're like, right, I knew that it was my fault. I knew it was me. So whatever occurs on the outside, rather than them being able to differentiate, well, this might be this person's opinion, or this might be what's happening in the world. They tend to make everything as if it's their fault. They take it completely personally. The second thing that Martin Seligman talks about, he talks about things that are permanent. So if you've got that mindset around something being permanent, that means things are not going to get better. For example, I'm hearing people go, yeah, this COVID thing, doesn't matter how many vaccinations we get, it's never going to get any better. So that mindset of saying that this is a permanent thing, has a very big impact on the imposter syndrome. So that means that I'm constantly going to feel like it's not going to go away. I am an imposter. I believe in an imposter. And this feeling of feeling like an imposter is never ever going to go away pretty dreary, I think.

And the third thing that Martin Seligman talks about, is this notion of being pervasive. And what that means is, for example, if I've had one bad teacher, I then just make that general rule that all teachers have that, if I've had one bad doctor, I think all that doctors about if I've had one terrible mentor, who betrayed my trust, and something I experienced, I believe mentoring and coaching is really bad. So he talks about it in these three things. And one of the really interesting things is I wanted to define that for people that are listening to it to say, if you do feel like an imposter, what is your belief system that sits behind it? Do you have things where you take things super personally, do you have where you permanently believe that you know that this shape is just not going to get better, it's just going to keep happening over and over again. And it's never going to get better.

Or do you think that because of that one experience everything around that particular experience around that particular type of person is going to keep repeating to itself for you. So I really want you to reflect on that work out where that sits. Now, I got really interested in the imposter syndrome. And I wouldn't have even called it that because I felt like an imposter. So I started off my career as an engineer, I did some more further study, I did an MBA. And before I knew it, my career started to fly. Now partly was flying because I was in the right place at the right time. And partly it flew. Because I worked my ass off, I worked so hard. And I wanted to prove to the world that I was super smart. So I'm one of those people that doesn't remember things straightaway. Like, I can read something, I'm not a good, or I don't recite things very well. But I learned things by experience, I learn things. And I'm a much slower learner, like, sometimes I'll be reading a book, which I love reading books. And I'll go back and have to read the same paragraph down like - wow, that was deep! I didn't get that. And I'll have to go back and read it twice or thrice. So that I really get the meaning of something. So for me, I felt like an imposter when I'm surrounded by people who are 20 years older than me, pretty smart. got all these qualifications, have been working in this industry of this particular job for a decade or more, are much older than me are wiser than me. And I'm like, What is this 30 year old, 29 year old to be exact doing in this executive leadership team? You know what, sooner or later, they're gonna go, look, you weren't our first choice, sorry, but the person just got back to us a bit later. And now you don't have that job. And I would constantly be meeting second guessing myself. And one of the things I found myself doing is I was either end of the spectrum. So either I'd be super quiet, because I my whole belief was, God, if I actually say something, they're really going to realize that I'm really stupid. And what I've got to say, really does not matter. So it's better that they assume that I'm smart. So because once they hear me say something in a meeting, they're going to realize I'm actually not that smart or stupid right now, but I felt that constantly. So I was so careful about what to say or not speak out, or keep my jaw really clench so that people wouldn't know that I was not that smart, because that's what I felt.

The other time, I also remember is I remember forcing myself to go, you know what, one of the things I have to do is I have to study a PhD, nobody's going to respect me - look at all the doctors in my family, look at all the lawyers and my family. And I know I've got an engineering degree in MBA, but I just felt like the study that I had done was not enough. So I started to speak to some people about becoming a  or having a PhD. And if I had a PhD, then I would finally feel smart enough, I would finally feel like I'm not an imposter. And then I could speak with authority, like all the other doctors that I now had a doctorate and a PhD.

So I started to explore this particular area. And then I went to this extraordinary teacher. And one of the questions that he asked me in a one on one mentoring session was, so do you know, how many books are PhD students studies? Not really a lot was my answer, which was pretty pathetic. He said that he will shade during a doctorate, but still study approximately 40 to 50 texts. I went out, okay. Yep, I still read a book quite a few books. Some years, I've gone through 40 or 50 books I want a week. And he said, well, why don't you if you really want a PhD on a certain topic, get your topic, or 40 or 50 books, read them all. And then you'll have the equivalent of a PhD on those topics. Rather than feel like you need to do all the study for four or five years. Yes, but what you don't understand is what came out of my mouth is that I need the PhD. He said, for your clients, family, or for you. And I went really silent. And I realized at that point, it was really to prove to myself, but more important, partly to prove to my clients who didn't need it, and to the world, that I was smart enough. And I recognize that this imposter syndrome has been with me from a very young age, a feeling like that I wasn't enough of some sort, not smart enough, not pretty enough, not determined enough, didn't focus enough. And really, it's carried into what I do. And now look at that. And I think oh my god, it's funny, you have wasted so much of your time worrying about whether you're a fricking imposter, there's all these people that you help. There's all these people that tell you, they're amazing, and you still feel like that occasionally. So I'm being totally vulnerable here and I'm putting it completely out there and saying to you, it is something that I battle with. It is something that bugs me, and I have some strategies now that I work on it and I'm going to share some of that with you in this podcast as well.

The other thing that happened for me was, I want the Telstra Business Women's Awards. And then a couple of people started to ask me to speak most of them either they want to hear about my journey of speaking, I haven't really achieved a lot. And then more and more people asked me whether it was speaking in schools speaking at different conferences, speaking at different the sponsors of the Telstra Business Awards, that they asked me to come and speak to their staff. Anyway, and then one person eventually said, Shivani, how much do you charge, like charge and frickin charge to speak, I just go and speak. And I still don't know why people want to hear me speak. So then I started working with what was called the National Speakers Association, which has now called Professional Speakers Association PSA in Australia. And then there's an equivalent PSM in the states where it started. And I started to learn about how to be a better speaker, oh, my goodness, talk about feeling like an imposter. So I would arrive at these chapter meetings, I would arrive at annual conferences and conventions. And I would come across these amazing speakers who had achieved so many things in their life. They had injuries, they had been through life threatening things, they'd climb mountains. And I was like, Who the hell am I to rock up and just talk about this journey of leaving the corporate life and starting up my business who would be interested in it. And I really started to feel like a fraud. And I spent years really not coming into my life. And some of you that are listening might really appreciate that. I'm not sure if I fully come into my life now. But certainly, more and more over the last decade, where I had to go, I've got to stop comparing myself to these people. When you compare yourself, I don't find I never look at somebody and go, Wow, I'm actually better than them of that.  Most of my comparisons are all about, oh my god, I suck at that. And they are so good at that. Oh, my God, look how many follows that they have that are better to look at them. And look how many people love them. Look how many times that they're booked? Oh, my God, look at that. So it's constant comparison of what somebody else is achieving. And I'm not very rarely am I going, Oh, my God, look how great I am. So my comparisons often leave me feeling like an imposter. And feeling like I'm small rather than celebrating the things that I've actually achieved.

So I wanted to also look up the definition of an imposter, like - How does the dictionary actually define it? And I was bamboozled. So let me share it with you. An imposter is somebody who does not have the skills or the experience or the ability, but pretend that they do. So for all of you listening out there, do you go? Do you not have the skills? Do you not have the ability? Do you not have the experience? I bet you any money you do. I bet you any money, you actually just feel like an imposter, even though you have all of those things. So it's so important to have a look at that definition, but actually don't have it. They're basically taking you for your ride. They're basically selling you something that they don't actually even have, and they're selling something to you that they don't have, our issue as women is that we have all of that we've got all of that we've got the skills, we've got the ability, we've got the experience, but we still feel that we're not enough, I come across so many women, that I have the privilege to mentor in the mentoring programs that are run that say that they didn't apply for that job, or they applied for a job and they didn't get it. And again, the basic now, I'm not gonna apply for anything else. That's it for me. Oh, my God, you have to go back and look at it. The fact that maybe and let me just get through here for a minute. Maybe you weren't meant to get that job. Maybe because you didn't get that job, there's a better job waiting for you around the corner.

I was speaking to one of the mums at school the other day, they moved to Queensland where I'm based in Brisbane, Australia, and she has tried for job after job after job and finally found the job of your dreams. And it's taken her almost a year. And she said to me Shivani - oh my god I've been through so much just started to feel like an imposter. And I said you were not meant to get any of those jobs. You know, to me, I think there's this alignment of the universe that says if you've got that job now then you wouldn't have found your dream job. So you have to hear all those no’s to be able to get to that yes. But what we end up assuming often as woman is that it's because we're an imposter. It's because we're not good enough. It's because we're not smart enough is just because we are not enough and feeling like an imposter around that. The other thing I wanted to do was I wanted to share with you the different types of imposters that you might be feeling like, I've come across this amazing programs that have been run to really help women around the types of imposter syndrome. 

So, the first one is a perfectionist. What is a perfectionist? Well, perfectionist is somebody that's constantly checking on projects, the perfectionist is somebody that just starts to not ever be happy with the results that you're getting. So if this is you, you could potentially be a perfectionist, you also can't stand any flaws in the whatever that it is that you're trying to achieve. And one of the things that you might not be doing is celebrating your successes. And one of the things is you're constantly looking at what you could have done better what your team could have done better, because you're constantly trying to be perfect.

That behavior in my experience of mentoring women, leads to burnout, that leads to lack of self-confidence, because you're never ever going to be happy doesn't matter if you've got 99.9%, that point 1% that you didn't get, that's what you're going to focus on. So you really need to focus on celebrating your wins. The other type that I come across all the time is a superwoman, in fact, I've been told that, look, I don't want to be a frickin Superwoman. Don't call me a Superman, I mean, you know, we used to get really, I used to get really excited about being able to juggle everything and being a Woman of Steel and moving through everything, I don't want to be that. And the Superwoman is constantly overworking stays back and does a lot of different things, pushes and pushes and pushes to get work completed from the workplace, does not look at any downtime, anything downtime is unproductive waste, oh, well, I've got 20 minutes, great, I'll just get a TED talk in, get a podcast and get this in, I do sometimes have these certain behaviors, by the way. And one of the things you're trying to do is constantly prove to others how working harder is something that you deserve, rather than saying I've already got there. So if you find yourself into a bit of a superwoman, one of the things that you might be doing is constantly looking for validation from others. I have a bit of that tendency to do that. So I'm completely just getting out there and sharing that with you that that's what you might be doing. And one of the things that you really need to do is nurture your confidence. Because you doesn't matter how much more you do. And seeking validation from other people, it becomes really, really difficult, you have to find more of that self-validation around that.

The other person that I come across in terms of imposter syndrome is somebody that wants to do everything by themselves. You've often heard in organizations, these executives working solo, they're not in solos, that's the sort of person so you almost love working in solos. And one of the things that you do is you tend to take projects over, you don't want any help, you know, you need help, but you don't take it because you are going to achieve all of it to do it by yourself. You also thrive on basically fixing all of the tasks yourself, you refuse helping team members, your colleagues, even your boss, even other family members might do that, because you believe that success comes to you if you do it all. And it starts to cause you a lot of stress, delegation, when you've tried it, and it hasn't worked, you got to know that person was useless, I'm going to take all of that back. So one of the things that you really need to do is work on more great relationships, you need to work on your trust, you need to know that that delegation may not work originally as you intended. But the more you do it, the more you practice it, the more you train people, the better they will become a taking that and not trying to do everything yourself.

And the last time that I come across other people that are experts - oh my god, they're an expert at frickin everything. So one of the things that happens is, you're always looking for training, you're always looking for certificates. And as I shared earlier, looking at getting that PhD. So people will go Shivani, you're an expert, you're a doctor, you're done this, you know, it's never enough, it's like this endless bottomless well, that you're never going to feel because you don't feel enough around that.

So one of the things that you really need to do is it's good to learn new skills, and learning is a really big value for me. But if you're constantly looking for validation, by having more skills, by or when I get this, I'll launch this when I have this, I'll do this, then you are going to have that imposter syndrome around that. So one of the things that I wanted to do with you is to talk about the fact that so many people have it. The biggest issue I find when I'm working with women in my mastermind, when I'm working with them one on one when I'm writing when I get approached a different speaking engagement is Shivani. I have an inner critic. It's constantly going at me, whether it's one of those four areas I spoke about what do I do and how do I make that work? So one of the things that I say is having an inner critic, having this judgmental voice, it's time that you're doing something wrong is good. If we don't have that voice, you've probably gone completely insane. But you have to manage it. You have to work out how to manage the same, so it doesn't run you and starts to run out everything that you do in your life, you want to run it. So you probably heard some great teachers speak about it. When our ego runs us, we are in deep, deep shit. When we run our ego, our ego is always going to be present. But when we run our ego, and we can manage it, then we're in control. And we know how to maximize it. And we know when ego needs to come in, and play that to our advantage. And when a guy does not need to come in, because then it starts to cause us a disadvantage. So your inner critical inner critic is always going to be there. Your ego is always going to be there.

The key thing is you want to manage it. You want to manage it. I hope today's podcast has been helpful to you. I hope you've started to recognize if you do feel like an imposter, but it's a very common thing that start to look at some of Martin Seligman’s work, start to look at the four areas that I've spoken to you about where you may be feeling like what are some of the work that you need to do that. And if you have some time, like 30 seconds, I'd love for you to go to open an apple and review and rate this podcast because it would mean so much to me, that I've stopped stop feeling like an imposter around being a podcaster which I started that journey about a year and a bit ago, and to share this message that I have for women not feeling like an imposter. So I would love your help around that. If you have any questions. Please know my website is called Ask Shivani, go to askshivani.com, go to the contact form. Shoot me a note. Check it out. Ask any questions and I'll be so happy to point you in the right direction. Thanks for being on here today.

I'm Shivani Gupta. And you've been listening to the Ask Shivani podcast where I'd like to ask some questions. Thank you so much for listening. Please follow Ask Shivani on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. And if you haven't done so, please go to the Apple podcasts and subscribe rate and review this podcast. It would mean a lot. Thank you.